From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 02:09:38 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:05:29 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <B5D60B2B-0144-4133-9008-C7F132A8BE32@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C145D102.3475%tangykatt@earthlink.net> A twisted variation. Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word Eurhythmics was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into Georgia. Dalcroze gave demonstrations everywhere. Hellerau was a result of the demonstrations. The system began in Geneva about 1900, moved to Dresden about 1902, left Germany because Dalcroze protested the war to the Kaiser, and returned to Geneva. Gurdjieff also formulated his system, especially his dances, after he connected with one of our first generation Dalcroze people, Jeanne Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the lighting for Orpheus. Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when Gurdjieff crossed over, and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff?s daughter by another Eurhythmician ? Jessmyn Howarth, became and is currently the head of that. The concepts of Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, that when G presented them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. Eurhythmics does not contain the enneagram. The offshoots and applications of Eurhythmics are myriad. The crossover into other areas are myriad. One you may know is the Orff Schulwerke for children. Gunther Keetman connected with Karl Orff, taught him everything she had learned about Dalcroze from Mary Wigman, a Hellerau Eurhythmician. The rest is history. The background is a book waiting for me to write it. Right now, this is the best I can do. The underlying purpose is to create a Humanistic society, integrating body, mind, and spirit, through musical experience that began with movement ? plastique animee, not dance. Music is everywhere. In Dalcroze?s view, everyone is creative. Not a new idea, or even a new approach. The content of the approach was unique. The musical movement training culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. You can make your own connections between that and life. One unified whole was the interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production of Orpheus at Hellerau. The very architecture of Hellerau was symbolic. Many, many connections. Hope this helps. k On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's Eurythmics. We did > some work with that years ago in a workshop I was in years ago somewhere, > maybe at Esalen. > > don > On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: > >> >> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >> >>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came out of the >>> Hellerau environment. ?Gesture and movement express or make visual all the >>> musical elements and their relationships. ?It?s called Plastique Animee. >>> ?For instance, how can you move through space and show Period-Phrase >>> structure with its different types of cadences, while showing tempo, meter, >>> dynamics, and articulation at the same time? ?The whole things works on a >>> time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. ?Then there?s the design of >>> lines. ?All through gesture and movement. ?The ideal Dalcroze class doesn?t >>> talk until after the experience has happened. ?The music and the movement >>> speak for themselves. ?Why? ?So words don?t direct the content of the >>> meaning you make from the experience. ?A shared dialog afterwards can serve >>> to name what you?ve experienced and to add information of many kinds to what >>> you alone have perceived and processed in that single experience.? >> >> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose of these >> Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean anything to me so I >> am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to aid musicians or composers or >> poets? What you describe sounds like something more, a bit like some kind of >> a Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or something similar. I >> would love to be filled in on the background. >> Thanks >> don >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061001/9eb36373/attachment.html From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 2 01:34:15 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:14:16 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct Message-ID: <20061001.171501.996.0.franis_franis@juno.com> Wouldn't you want the people with whom you have been dialoguing to know you're dead? - Franis On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:04:18 +0100 Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: > Interesting question. A number of times the server has automatically > > deleted subscribers after > repeated bounces because of full mailboxes or closed accounts. Who > knows what actually > happened to these folks? > > Do you thing that we should we all leave instructions with our next > > of kin or executors to inform the list? > > don > > > On 1 Oct 2006, at 12:50, Franis Engel wrote: > > > How would any of us know if one of us Bohm members died here? > > Mostly, the > > person would just disappear, unless someone bothered to notify us > > > here. > > - Franis > > > > On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:10:33 +0100 Don Factor > > <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: > >> This is the last post notdealing with death. I think you are > right > >> that we are avoiding the subject. > >> > >>> > >>> Why did Dwight leave Dialog? > >> > >> He opted to follow peter to the TT freeforall. > >> > >> don > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> info: > >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >> > >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >> > >> dialogue facilitator: > >> facilitator@david-bohm.net > >> > >> Administrator of the mailing list: > >> admin@david-bohm.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > info: > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > > dialogue facilitator: > > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > > Administrator of the mailing list: > > admin@david-bohm.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 2 02:31:38 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:35:05 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss Message-ID: <20061001.173541.996.1.franis_franis@juno.com> Fascinating! - I especially enjoy that you are correlating all the other related things that were happening at the same era and how they affected each other. Keep it coming! - Franis On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:09:38 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes: > A twisted variation. Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word > Eurhythmics > was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into Georgia. > Dalcroze > gave demonstrations everywhere. Hellerau was a result of the > demonstrations. The system began in Geneva about 1900, moved to > Dresden > about 1902, left Germany because Dalcroze protested the war to the > Kaiser, > and returned to Geneva. Gurdjieff also formulated his system, > especially > his dances, after he connected with one of our first generation > Dalcroze > people, Jeanne Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the > lighting for > Orpheus. Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when > Gurdjieff > crossed over, and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff¹s daughter by > another > Eurhythmician Jessmyn Howarth, became and is currently the head of > that. > The concepts of Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, > that > when G presented them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. > Eurhythmics > does not contain the enneagram. The offshoots and applications of > Eurhythmics are myriad. The crossover into other areas are myriad. > One you > may know is the Orff Schulwerke for children. Gunther Keetman > connected > with Karl Orff, taught him everything she had learned about Dalcroze > from > Mary Wigman, a Hellerau Eurhythmician. The rest is history. > > The background is a book waiting for me to write it. Right now, > this is the > best I can do. The underlying purpose is to create a Humanistic > society, > integrating body, mind, and spirit, through musical experience that > began > with movement plastique animee, not dance. Music is everywhere. > In > Dalcroze¹s view, everyone is creative. Not a new idea, or even a > new > approach. The content of the approach was unique. The musical > movement > training culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. > You can > make your own connections between that and life. One unified whole > was the > interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production of > Orpheus at > Hellerau. The very architecture of Hellerau was symbolic. Many, > many > connections. Hope this helps. k > > > On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> > wrote: > > > Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's > Eurythmics. We did > > some work with that years ago in a workshop I was in years ago > somewhere, > > maybe at Esalen. > > > > don > > On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: > > > >> > >> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> > >>> He was a student of Delsarte¹s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came > out of the > >>> Hellerau environment. Gesture and movement express or make > visual all the > >>> musical elements and their relationships. It¹s called Plastique > Animee. > >>> For instance, how can you move through space and show > Period-Phrase > >>> structure with its different types of cadences, while showing > tempo, meter, > >>> dynamics, and articulation at the same time? The whole things > works on a > >>> time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. Then there¹s > the design of > >>> lines. All through gesture and movement. The ideal Dalcroze > class doesn¹t > >>> talk until after the experience has happened. The music and the > movement > >>> speak for themselves. Why? So words don¹t direct the content > of the > >>> meaning you make from the experience. A shared dialog > afterwards can serve > >>> to name what you¹ve experienced and to add information of many > kinds to what > >>> you alone have perceived and processed in that single > experience. > >> > >> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose > of these > >> Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean anything > to me so I > >> am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to aid musicians or > composers or > >> poets? What you describe sounds like something more, a bit like > some kind of > >> a Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or something > similar. I > >> would love to be filled in on the background. > >> Thanks > >> don > >> _______________________________________________ > >> info: > >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >> > >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >> > >> dialogue facilitator: > >> facilitator@david-bohm.net > >> > >> Administrator of the mailing list: > >> admin@david-bohm.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > info: > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > > dialogue facilitator: > > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > > Administrator of the mailing list: > > admin@david-bohm.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 02:39:47 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:35:34 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <518.65ba5250.32515caa@aol.com> Message-ID: <C145D813.3478%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Hi Mark - I don?t understand your association of gesture, and mime, with static pictures. Gesture and mime move. They become static only when the movement stops. Don?t forget, eurhythmics moves through space while utilizing all the other things. It?s based on movement in many different ways and of many different kinds and combinations, and for many different purposes. Things i haven?t begun to describe here. ?body sculpture? may be what somebody excerpted from it, but it is not Eurhythmics by any means. (From what you say, it bears little resemblance to it.) Not even as much as Eurhythmy or the Gurdjieff dances. Or the Ballet Russe that owes the production of Rites of Spring to a rhythmician named Marie Rambert, hired by Diagliev to help with the choreography, and assist particularly Nijinsky understand how to dance the ?weird? music. Or the choreography of ?My Fair Lady? and ?Camelot?, done by Hanya Holm, another first generation Eurhythmician. Actually, Geneva inserted something called Eutony (Gerda Alexander), which wasn?t part of the original, either. Eurhythmics has been subject to many ?operations?. That?s why I cautioned you that you most likely would not find the original concept in any one place anymore, and why I say I have books to write. And that?s why one has to experience it, not read about it in order to truly understand what it?s about. i guess my concern here is that you seem to have misunderstood Eurhythmics completely, based on my words, and/or your associations with them. Best, k On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Kathy, > > The gesture and mime idea reminds me of something I've heard of called "body > sculpture", where people create a static picture about (say) a set of > relationships at work. But I'm very interested in the dynamic rather than the > static. > > I'll have a proper read. We're having thunderstorms here today and my > electricity keeps going on and off. I must say it's great when it's off - > somehow without the distraction of technology we end up doing much more > interactive stuff in the household! But then again, I don't get to see all the > emails... > > Mark >> Oh dear, I?ll never recreate it. Anyway, its musings have led me to play >> with extracting meaning from the images Kris posted this morning. >> Interesting results! I don?t know how, but that little exercise seems to >> have intersected with the explorations and theories I?m forming about making >> musical shapes, and led to the insight that I was trying to make musical >> shapes with no thought as to how they relate to the rest of the musical >> elements I was dealing with. Once I changed my way of thinking, it all >> began to flow. >> >> Yes ? now I remember. A lot of what I said had to do with making it safe >> for people to share their personal associations to images. It reveals you >> to your depths. No puts downs should be allowed. If people aren?t aware >> that they?re engaging in put-downs, some way of bringing it to their >> attention needs to be available. >> >> Also, for your multi-cultural workshop, consider gesture and mime. Dalcroze >> works with both of those. He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and >> Michio Ito came out of the Hellerau environment. Gesture and movement >> express or make visual all the musical elements and their relationships. >> It?s called Plastique Animee. For instance, how can you move through space >> and show Period-Phrase structure with its different types of cadences, while >> showing tempo, meter, dynamics, and articulation at the same time? The >> whole things works on a time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. >> Then there?s the design of lines. All through gesture and movement. The >> ideal Dalcroze class doesn?t talk until after the experience has happened. >> The music and the movement speak for themselves. Why? So words don?t >> direct the content of the meaning you make from the experience. A shared >> dialog afterwards can serve to name what you?ve experienced and to add >> information of many kinds to what you alone have perceived and processed in >> that single experience. Dalcroze has to be experienced to be understood. >> Words can never suffice. If you do use any of this, I?d really love to know >> how it turns out. Actually, whether or not you use it, I?d love to hear >> about the results of your workshop. >> >> A couple of people have asked that we post the Dalcroze discussions for >> everyone, so I?ll do so ? if it?s ok with you ? until someone objects. >> >> Back to making an Allemande out of Twinkle Little Star! >> >> Best, k > > ********************** > > Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows > in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's > free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your > complete piece of mind. Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk > <http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/> and you'll find out why our customers love > us! > > Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic > band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland, > Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at > http://www.celtmusic.co.uk <http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/> > > Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe > it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will > get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of > music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk > <http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/> > > NEW! > > What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About > leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For > organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see > http://www.yourmusic.biz <http://www.yourmusic.biz/> - building on 24 years > of successful organisational learning! > > COMING SOON > > Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and > fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous > frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at > http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk <http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061001/be75c4b0/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 02:49:12 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:44:57 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] what kind of OS In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F175BCB87F95179949F36D0A81E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C145DA48.347B%tangykatt@earthlink.net> A loving one. Thanks for trusting me. I hope that part of you doesn't ever vanish, but any time you want what you perceive as labels changed, you have only to say so. I have always had trouble with power concepts, hierarchies and my right to choose, so i understand at least that aspect of not wanting to be labeled. Best, notsodangerousbutcuriousk On 10/1/06 2:01 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: > Kathryn: "What kind of operation do YOU see here?" > > > http://tinyurl.com/lcc3v > > > > > > > > > > > > Youmaystickerlabeldrawermekris > -------------------------- > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld > >>> Morning Kris - >>> >>> I think it's more important to hear your ideas on how change in people's >>> thinking occurs, than for me to expound on the topic. I'd love to listen >>> and >>> respond to your insights. What kind of operation do YOU see here? >> >> >> Good Afternoon Mammaliandcuriousk ~ >> >> That is a very good question >> >> (And I wished more subscriber of this Chatgroup >> >> Would ask -themselves- that) >> >> Because the answers are pretty&ugly >> >> (And I will start offering some in >> >> Posts to come - little miniseries) >> >> Let's just start with this one: >> >> >> http://www.statistenverein.ch/image/gallery/seniorenausflug/Seniorenausflug%2 >> 02.jpg >> >> http://www.luterbach.ch/01gemeinde/pics/Seniorenausflug.JPG >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Love & Kaffeekranzchen, Krrrri-sss >> -------------------------- >> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld >> >>> Also - what would you truly like to be called? I don't think you should >>> wear a mask unless you want to. And if you do want to, what kind do you >>> want? >>> Further - I'm very interested to know what kind of creative pursuits you >>> prefer for your own self expression. Lest my meaning is nebulous, I mean >>> like mine is music and the art of teaching. >>> >>> Love, and I can't Fillintheblanksfor you. k >>> >>> >>> On 9/29/06 1:51 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Kathryn ~ >>>> >>>> "operation"? >>>> >>>> hm >>>> >>>> what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten >>>> -------------------------- >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld >>>> >>>> >>>>> Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read >>> through >>>>> the >>>>> facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe >>> space >>>>> for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, >>> creative, >>>>> and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. >>> Perhaps he >>>>> sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us >>> along >>>>> to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm >>> is, >>>>> other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable >>> contributions of >>>>> their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own >>>>> understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand >>> him. >>>>> >>>>> He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his >>>>> underlying attitude towards people, I believe. >>>>> >>>>> My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! >>> But >>>>> they are inseparable, and take care of each other. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work >>> for >>>>> most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a >>> better >>>>> way. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, that is my opinion. k >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel >>>>>> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the >>>>>> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person >>>>>> has joined the list under different names and written in >>>>>> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am >>>>>> writing this: >>>>>> >>>>>> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point, >>>>>> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of >>>>>> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without >>>>>> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those >>>>>> who would likely have considered it a waste of time. >>>>>> >>>>>> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is >>>>>> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts >>>>>> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our >>>>>> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are >>>>>> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic? >>>>>> >>>>>> don >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> info: >>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>>>> >>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> info: >>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>>> >>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows >>> Live >>>> Spaces >>>> >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www >>> .g >>>> et.live.com/spaces/features >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows >> Live Spaces >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www. >> get.live.com/spaces/features >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m > icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm > tagline > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 02:52:58 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:49:00 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <20061001.173541.996.1.franis_franis@juno.com> Message-ID: <C145DB2A.347D%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Thank you. I really must start writing. I just don't know if a publisher would be interested in it. I am a warrior against fragmentation! k On 10/1/06 8:31 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote: > Fascinating! - > I especially enjoy that you are correlating all the other related things > that were happening at the same era and how they affected each other. > Keep it coming! > - Franis > > On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:09:38 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi > <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes: >> A twisted variation. Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word >> Eurhythmics >> was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into Georgia. >> Dalcroze >> gave demonstrations everywhere. Hellerau was a result of the >> demonstrations. The system began in Geneva about 1900, moved to >> Dresden >> about 1902, left Germany because Dalcroze protested the war to the >> Kaiser, >> and returned to Geneva. Gurdjieff also formulated his system, >> especially >> his dances, after he connected with one of our first generation >> Dalcroze >> people, Jeanne Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the >> lighting for >> Orpheus. Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when >> Gurdjieff >> crossed over, and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff?s daughter by >> another >> Eurhythmician ? Jessmyn Howarth, became and is currently the head of >> that. >> The concepts of Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, >> that >> when G presented them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. >> Eurhythmics >> does not contain the enneagram. The offshoots and applications of >> Eurhythmics are myriad. The crossover into other areas are myriad. >> One you >> may know is the Orff Schulwerke for children. Gunther Keetman >> connected >> with Karl Orff, taught him everything she had learned about Dalcroze >> from >> Mary Wigman, a Hellerau Eurhythmician. The rest is history. >> >> The background is a book waiting for me to write it. Right now, >> this is the >> best I can do. The underlying purpose is to create a Humanistic >> society, >> integrating body, mind, and spirit, through musical experience that >> began >> with movement ? plastique animee, not dance. Music is everywhere. >> In >> Dalcroze?s view, everyone is creative. Not a new idea, or even a >> new >> approach. The content of the approach was unique. The musical >> movement >> training culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. >> You can >> make your own connections between that and life. One unified whole >> was the >> interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production of >> Orpheus at >> Hellerau. The very architecture of Hellerau was symbolic. Many, >> many >> connections. Hope this helps. k >> >> >> On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's >> Eurythmics. We did >>> some work with that years ago in a workshop I was in years ago >> somewhere, >>> maybe at Esalen. >>> >>> don >>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>>> >>>>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came >> out of the >>>>> Hellerau environment. ?Gesture and movement express or make >> visual all the >>>>> musical elements and their relationships. ?It?s called Plastique >> Animee. >>>>> ?For instance, how can you move through space and show >> Period-Phrase >>>>> structure with its different types of cadences, while showing >> tempo, meter, >>>>> dynamics, and articulation at the same time? ?The whole things >> works on a >>>>> time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. ?Then there?s >> the design of >>>>> lines. ?All through gesture and movement. ?The ideal Dalcroze >> class doesn?t >>>>> talk until after the experience has happened. ?The music and the >> movement >>>>> speak for themselves. ?Why? ?So words don?t direct the content >> of the >>>>> meaning you make from the experience. ?A shared dialog >> afterwards can serve >>>>> to name what you?ve experienced and to add information of many >> kinds to what >>>>> you alone have perceived and processed in that single >> experience.? >>>> >>>> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose >> of these >>>> Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean anything >> to me so I >>>> am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to aid musicians or >> composers or >>>> poets? What you describe sounds like something more, a bit like >> some kind of >>>> a Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or something >> similar. I >>>> would love to be filled in on the background. >>>> Thanks >>>> don >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 03:06:06 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 04:02:07 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark In-Reply-To: <C144989D.74CD%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> Message-ID: <C145DE3E.347E%tangykatt@earthlink.net> The words are great. I wish I could hear the melody, too. What key did you put it in? k On 9/30/06 11:56 PM, "Lynne Tolk" <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote: > I can share words, don?t know how to share the melody, though. This is one I > performed at a women?s writers retreat several years ago. (I play a little > simple guitar to accompany myself.) (Thanks for asking, Mark!) > > If I could break the old taboos, > If I could touch. > If I could choose to speak the words > I?ve not yet thought. > If I could loose the powerful thing within me, > If I could let my power join with yours, > Then would the world come to rest, completely, > Then would my soul be at peace. > > Lynne > > On 9/30/06 9:21 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote: > >> I'm really interested in what you might have written if you're happy to share >> it. I love the idea of music / poetry etc - anything that's a sequence in >> time, as that "does it" for me in a way that still images really don't. >>> I'm not really a musician (but a singer), but I love reading about this. >>> I've always been interested in the connection between poetry and music as >>> two forms of the same sort of expression. I used to write songs, exploring >>> this. Haven't in a long time, though. >>> >>> Lynne >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > -- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach > 208 376-1336 > www.lifedirectionscoach.com > (visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com) > > > "Love is never earned . . . > It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061001/a135b25b/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 04:05:27 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:01:18 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death? In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F14679D7B03219C24C10A2DA8190@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C145EC27.3488%tangykatt@earthlink.net> On Rereading - you're absolutely right. It IS a matter of how its done, but many people neither know that, nor can transcend their fear of doing it. k On 9/30/06 8:43 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: > Dear Canbedangerouskathryn ~ it is a matter howthinkgs > > are (un)done: Argentine and Ballroom > > Tango use very different techniques > > and vocabularies, to the point where some consider them > > related in name only. > > In Argentine tango, the body's center moves first, then the > > feet reach to support it. In ballroom tango the feet move and > > the whole body weight follows. > > Ballroom tango steps are staccato, and generally follow a > > specific "slow, slow, quick, quick, slow" rhythm. The "slow" > > steps are best described as 'quick, hold', as the dancer > > rushes to step and then holds before rushing to the next > > step. This matches the staccato accents that appear in > > ballroom tango music. > > In Argentine tango, the steps are typically more gliding, but > > can vary widely in timing, speed, and character, and follow > > no single specific rhythm. Because the dance is lead and > > followed at the level of individual steps, these variations > > can occur from one step to the next. This allows the dancers > > to vary the dance from moment to moment to match the music > > (which often has both legato and/or staccato elements) and > > their mood. > > The Argentine Tango's frame, called an abrazo or "embrace," > > is not rigid, but flexibly adjusts to different steps, and > > may vary from being quite close, to offset in a "V" frame, to > > open. The Ballroom Tango's frame is more rigid, with the arms > > tenser and held higher. > > There is a closed position as in other types of ballroom > > dance, but it differs significantly between types of tango. > > In Argentine Tango, the "close embrace" involves continuous > > contact at the full upper body, but not the legs. In Ballroom > > tango, the "close embrace" involves close contact only at the > > hips and upper thighs, and not the upper torso. > > In Argentine Tango, the ball or toe of the foot may be placed > > first. Alternately, the dancer may take the floor with the > > entire foot in a cat-like manner. In the International style > > of Tango, "heel leads" (stepping first onto the heel, then > > the whole foot) are used for forward steps. > > Ballroom tango steps stay close to the floor, while the > > Argentine Tango includes moves such as the boleo (allowing > > momentum to carry one's leg into the air) and gancho (hooking > > one's leg around one's partner's leg or body) in which the > > feet travel off the ground. Argentine Tango features other > > vocabulary foreign to ballroom, such as the parada (in which > > the leader puts his foot against the follower's foot), the > > arrastre (in which the leader appears to drag or be dragged > > by the follower's foot), and several kinds of sacada (in > > which the leader displaces the follower's leg by stepping > > into her space). > > > > > > > Love & Offtraildancing, Kirsten > -------------------------- > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld > > > >> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net> >> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death? >> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:59:03 -0400 >> >> I just hope we can all walk in and out of alternate realities, and keep our >> balance. You know, those tango steps can be dangerous. Watch them again >> with that thought in mind! k >> >> >> On 9/29/06 1:12 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Dropper >>> >>> "Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as >> it >>> is and not as it should be." Miguel de Cervantes >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Love & Tango, Kirsten >>> >>> -------------------------- >>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld >>>> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly >>>> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions' >>>> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the >>>> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing" >>>> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while >>>> arbitrarily so], "scenes." >>>> >>>> pat >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes: >>>> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting >> 3-4 >>>> meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing >>>> music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants >>>> and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience >>>> is an absence of self-image/ role. >>>> >>>> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning >>>> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which >>>> were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be >>>> without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks. >>>> >>>> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to >>>> refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely >>>> fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something >>>> more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to >>>> fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice. >>>> >>>> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs >>>> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They >> are >>>> an essential tool designed for functioning in this world. >>>> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I >>>> could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of >>>> self-image for conscious awareness. _R >>>> . >>>> . >>>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT >>>> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com >>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky" >>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >>>> . >>>> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our >>>> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"? >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more then map the best >>> route! http://local.live.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m > icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm > tagline > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 04:08:59 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:04:46 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] what kind of OS In-Reply-To: <C1454B17.3449%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <C145ECFB.3489%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Can't access the images. As an alternative, I tried typing the WWW address into Safari's address slot, and wound up at an opera house in Zurich, with access denied to the photo. k On 10/1/06 10:38 AM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net> wrote: > Morning Krrrri-sss - > > This one's more difficult than Breakfast at Tiffany's. I shall have to > reflect a while. Maybe I'm just a little tired from reading all the posts, > because on second thought, it isn't. I just need a break. I think the > color of K's skin got to me, because I have fought against prejudice all my > life. I've seen what it can do to creative, intelligent, beautiful people I > have loved. I hope I jumped to the wrong conclusions - that my underlying > assumption was wrong. > > Expect another post as the day goes on, and I dialog musically with myself. > Maybe I'll even get into expressing my thoughts in this language. What a > way to prevent Alzheimer's! > > >> Love & Kaffeekranzchen back at you. KuriousK > > P.S. Kaffee, I understand. What's "kranzchen"? > > > On 10/1/06 8:27 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >>> Morning Kris - >>> >>> I think it's more important to hear your ideas on how change in people's >>> thinking occurs, than for me to expound on the topic. I'd love to listen >>> and >>> respond to your insights. What kind of operation do YOU see here? >> >> >> Good Afternoon Mammaliandcuriousk ~ >> >> That is a very good question >> >> (And I wished more subscriber of this Chatgroup >> >> Would ask -themselves- that) >> >> Because the answers are pretty&ugly >> >> (And I will start offering some in >> >> Posts to come - little miniseries) >> >> Let's just start with this one: >> >> >> http://www.statistenverein.ch/image/gallery/seniorenausflug/Seniorenausflug%2>> 0 >> 2.jpg >> >> http://www.luterbach.ch/01gemeinde/pics/Seniorenausflug.JPG >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Love & Kaffeekranzchen, Krrrri-sss >> -------------------------- >> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld >> >>> Also - what would you truly like to be called? I don't think you should >>> wear a mask unless you want to. And if you do want to, what kind do you >>> want? >>> Further - I'm very interested to know what kind of creative pursuits you >>> prefer for your own self expression. Lest my meaning is nebulous, I mean >>> like mine is music and the art of teaching. >>> >>> Love, and I can't Fillintheblanksfor you. k >>> >>> >>> On 9/29/06 1:51 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Kathryn ~ >>>> >>>> "operation"? >>>> >>>> hm >>>> >>>> what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten >>>> -------------------------- >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld >>>> >>>> >>>>> Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read >>> through >>>>> the >>>>> facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe >>> space >>>>> for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, >>> creative, >>>>> and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. >>> Perhaps he >>>>> sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us >>> along >>>>> to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm >>> is, >>>>> other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions >>> of >>>>> their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own >>>>> understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him. >>>>> >>>>> He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his >>>>> underlying attitude towards people, I believe. >>>>> >>>>> My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! >>> But >>>>> they are inseparable, and take care of each other. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work >>> for >>>>> most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a >>> better >>>>> way. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, that is my opinion. k >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel >>>>>> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the >>>>>> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person >>>>>> has joined the list under different names and written in >>>>>> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am >>>>>> writing this: >>>>>> >>>>>> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point, >>>>>> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of >>>>>> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without >>>>>> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those >>>>>> who would likely have considered it a waste of time. >>>>>> >>>>>> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is >>>>>> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts >>>>>> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our >>>>>> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are >>>>>> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic? >>>>>> >>>>>> don >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> info: >>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>>>> >>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> info: >>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>>> >>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows >>> Live >>>> Spaces >>>> >>> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.>> > > g >>>> et.live.com/spaces/features >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live >> Spaces >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.>> g >> et.live.com/spaces/features >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 04:14:29 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:10:15 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Korzybski & cognitive neurobiology Message-ID: <C145EE45.348B%tangykatt@earthlink.net> I am particularly interested in cognitive neurobiology and Bohm's idea that the brain is naturally wired (probably inaccurate words, but it's my best at the moment) to work in tandem with the enfolded structure of implicate and explicate order. Does anybody know if Korzybski's ideas have been followed up on by contemporary cognitive neurobiologists or related fields? k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061001/0eb9f3bf/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 04:32:01 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:28:04 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] 78685r7f&6r757576%&%75 In-Reply-To: <7D1A8B97-73B0-4AB9-93AD-F1DF51FC92AB@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C145F261.3490%tangykatt@earthlink.net> More to the point of your question is an incident that occurred in my beginning Navajo class. I asked the teacher a question after class was over. His answer? He grabbed a piece of chalk and in silence, with a smile on his face, drew a whole scene depicting the answer on the chalkboard. I didn't know what to look at first, and trying to grasp it in its entirety was bewildering. The word imagery is so detailed, that unspoken assumptions are more often than not, spoken. Most amazing is to see the weavers weave a rug and create the design as they go along. Improvisation at its most developed realization. In other words, they think in images, their world view is one of movement, and the language is built of movement and imagery. Can a non-native speaker learn it? Yes, with time, patience, encouragement, experience, and the right attitude. On 10/1/06 12:34 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Do you think > that the way the language models reality for you is the same as it is > for him? From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 09:20:06 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 10:15:57 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct Message-ID: <2fc.7e9c552b.325217a6@aol.com> I was thinking yesterday of all the stuff I've got on the web - an online business, my harp playing - all scattered around various servers somewhere. The web is also a kind of organisation, not a "thing" exactly, but a series of connections of which we all have our own conceptual map, with those bit which we've explored, and those which might be unknown territory - or even those bits which we might think of as "Here be Dragons" on those old maps. I think one attraction of belonging to any organisation is a sense that you're plugging into something that will outlive you - in fact, that is one way of being immortal. Bateson talked about the "pattern that connects" and how our lives weave themselves into the fabric of our society - perhaps something like the "social memory" I mentioned a few days ago. They make a difference - or they don't - but (bringing it back to Dialogue) Bateson talked also about "the difference that makes a difference" - and, I think, this is also about the similarities we have - in terms of belonging to a group, and in terms of the quality of our dialogue. Wouldn't you want the people with whom you have been dialoguing to know you're dead? - Franis On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:04:18 +0100 Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: > Interesting question. A number of times the server has automatically > > deleted subscribers after > repeated bounces because of full mailboxes or closed accounts. Who > knows what actually > happened to these folks? > > Do you thing that we should we all leave instructions with our next > > of kin or executors to inform the list? ********************** Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_ (http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our customers love us! Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland, Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at _http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/) Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at _http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_ (http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/) NEW! What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see _http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on 24 years of successful organisational learning! COMING SOON Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at _http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_ (http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/2c359609/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 09:24:43 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 10:20:32 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss Message-ID: <4aa.34f861ea.325218bb@aol.com> HI K - sorry - I worded my email really awkwardly as I was having major problems with the power going on and off yesterday and didn't want it to disappear before I'd sent it. What I meant to convey was what you put so eloquently - that they are different as Eurythmy is dynamic. So I was really agreeing with this but my words were misleading. Yes, I have only scratched the surface of this and I'm really interested in what you've said about what's "behind" Eurhythm. I'm learning!! I don?t understand your association of gesture, and mime, with static pictures. Hi Kathy, The gesture and mime idea reminds me of something I've heard of called "body sculpture", where people create a static picture about (say) a set of relationships at work. But I'm very interested in the dynamic rather than the static. ********************** Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_ (http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our customers love us! Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland, Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at _http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/) Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at _http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_ (http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/) NEW! What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see _http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on 24 years of successful organisational learning! COMING SOON Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at _http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_ (http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/6d4b629d/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 10:06:37 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:02:28 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark Message-ID: <c75.1548d3b.3252228d@aol.com> I agree - they're lovely words, Lynne. You mentioned "taking yourself seriously", which really resonates for me, too. Are these words a bit about that? For me, your words so perfectly describe the "something invisible" that holds me back, sometimes, from joining in. In fact, I realise that all my music workshops, which are about "joining in" in one form or another, are probably about me exploring (with my groups) how I join in. PS Apologies to all on the list, I keep forgetting to delete my email signatures before sending. I'll try and remember. The words are great. I wish I could hear the melody, too. What key did you put it in? k On 9/30/06 11:56 PM, "Lynne Tolk" <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote: I can share words, don?t know how to share the melody, though. This is one I performed at a women?s writers retreat several years ago. (I play a little simple guitar to accompany myself.) (Thanks for asking, Mark!) If I could break the old taboos, If I could touch. If I could choose to speak the words I?ve not yet thought. If I could loose the powerful thing within me, If I could let my power join with yours, Then would the world come to rest, completely, Then would my soul be at peace. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/ff7187c6/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 10:28:18 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:24:11 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct In-Reply-To: <20061001.171501.996.0.franis_franis@juno.com> References: <20061001.171501.996.0.franis_franis@juno.com> Message-ID: <81B67647-7322-4244-87BE-26F200F2622E@donfactor.demon.co.uk> I would want to know if any of our subscribers were dead. When I die, I don''t think I would mind one way or the other. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 00:34, Franis Engel wrote: > Wouldn't you want the people with whom you have been dialoguing to > know > you're dead? > - Franis > > On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:04:18 +0100 Don Factor > <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: >> Interesting question. A number of times the server has automatically >> >> deleted subscribers after >> repeated bounces because of full mailboxes or closed accounts. Who >> knows what actually >> happened to these folks? >> >> Do you thing that we should we all leave instructions with our next >> >> of kin or executors to inform the list? >> >> don >> >> >> On 1 Oct 2006, at 12:50, Franis Engel wrote: >> >>> How would any of us know if one of us Bohm members died here? >>> Mostly, the >>> person would just disappear, unless someone bothered to notify us >> >>> here. >>> - Franis >>> >>> On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:10:33 +0100 Don Factor >>> <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: >>>> This is the last post notdealing with death. I think you are >> right >>>> that we are avoiding the subject. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why did Dwight leave Dialog? >>>> >>>> He opted to follow peter to the TT freeforall. >>>> >>>> don >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 10:42:47 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:39:37 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct In-Reply-To: <2fc.7e9c552b.325217a6@aol.com> References: <2fc.7e9c552b.325217a6@aol.com> Message-ID: <BB30B0A8-485E-4ECF-A194-6B82DE638B54@donfactor.demon.co.uk> i would say network rather than organisation. An organisation still smacks of something mechanical, rigid, conservative. But a network is something else. Way back in the early sixties, I think it was, Bell Telephone opened its first digital phone exchange. According to Time Magazine, as the big wigs were being shown around the maze of wires, transistors and connections, somebody noticed a a tiny wire hanging loose somewhere up above their heads. The Bell people were shocked and set about trying to see what happened. On examination it seemed that this broken connection had no effect whatsoever on the working of the exchange. On further examination they found that the system - very complex - had simply by passed the broken link. No programmer was aware of having written that into the programme nor were they able to find where it said for it to behave in this way. This article really amazed me, and probably created a meme for me, about the power of networks and later, the internet. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 08:20, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > I was thinking yesterday of all the stuff I've got on the web - an > online business, my harp playing - all scattered around various > servers somewhere. The web is also a kind of organisation, not a > "thing" exactly, but a series of connections of which we all have > our own conceptual map, with those bit which we've explored, and > those which might be unknown territory - or even those bits which > we might think of as "Here be Dragons" on those old maps. I think > one attraction of belonging to any organisation is a sense that > you're plugging into something that will outlive you - in fact, > that is one way of being immortal. Bateson talked about the > "pattern that connects" and how our lives weave themselves into the > fabric of our society - perhaps something like the "social memory" > I mentioned a few days ago. They make a difference - or they don't > - but (bringing it back to Dialogue) Bateson talked also about "the > difference that makes a difference" - and, I think, this is also > about the similarities we have - in terms of belonging to a group, > and in terms of the quality of our dialogue. > Wouldn't you want the people with whom you have been dialoguing to > know > you're dead? > - Franis > > On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:04:18 +0100 Don Factor > <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: > > Interesting question. A number of times the server has automatically > > > > deleted subscribers after > > repeated bounces because of full mailboxes or closed accounts. Who > > knows what actually > > happened to these folks? > > > > Do you thing that we should we all leave instructions with our next > > > > of kin or executors to inform the list? > > ********************** > > Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible > Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent > immediately on payment, there's free postage to the UK and EU, and > a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your complete piece of mind. > Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk and you'll find out why our > customers love us! > > Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven- > piece celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following > in the UK, Ireland, Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 > downloads. Meet us all at http://www.celtmusic.co.uk > > Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, > then you owe it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You > and your children will get to play real musical instruments and lay > the foundation for a lifetime of music. Seriously Fun Music > Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk > > NEW! > > What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? > About leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? > For organisational consulting and group work with a sound > difference, see http://www.yourmusic.biz - building on 24 years of > successful organisational learning! > > COMING SOON > > Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded > and fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and > develop. Fabulous frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available > August 2006 at http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/fe12072a/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 11:00:10 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:56:03 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <C145D102.3475%tangykatt@earthlink.net> References: <C145D102.3475%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <55FEB34A-F2E0-46CE-94FB-8628944B47EB@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Thanks for this. It fills in a lot of blanks. And, it makes me think of Bohm's dialogue which began as a rather counterintuitive approach to understanding the nature of human thought and now, turns out to have exploded into hundreds of very different groups and companies - fragments, to my mind - mostly in the management consulting game, but also in education, religious groups, and just about every area where there is money to be made, or so it seems. Anyway, we here are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what Bohm was trying to do. in the meanwhile, I wonder if you have ever run across The Occult Establishment by James Webb, first published in 1976. Although, I couldn't find Eurhythmics in the index, nor Dalcroze, it covers a great deal of what was going on in the "alternative" world from the beginning of the 20th Century and might be useful for your own writing. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 01:09, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > A twisted variation. Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word > Eurhythmics was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into > Georgia. Dalcroze gave demonstrations everywhere. Hellerau was a > result of the demonstrations. The system began in Geneva about > 1900, moved to Dresden about 1902, left Germany because Dalcroze > protested the war to the Kaiser, and returned to Geneva. Gurdjieff > also formulated his system, especially his dances, after he > connected with one of our first generation Dalcroze people, Jeanne > Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the lighting for > Orpheus. Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when > Gurdjieff crossed over, and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff?s > daughter by another Eurhythmician ? Jessmyn Howarth, became and is > currently the head of that. The concepts of Eurhythmics are so > embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, that when G presented them in > Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. Eurhythmics does not contain > the enneagram. The offshoots and applications of Eurhythmics are > myriad. The crossover into other areas are myriad. One you may > know is the Orff Schulwerke for children. Gunther Keetman > connected with Karl Orff, taught him everything she had learned > about Dalcroze from Mary Wigman, a Hellerau Eurhythmician. The > rest is history. > > The background is a book waiting for me to write it. Right now, > this is the best I can do. The underlying purpose is to create a > Humanistic society, integrating body, mind, and spirit, through > musical experience that began with movement ? plastique animee, not > dance. Music is everywhere. In Dalcroze?s view, everyone is > creative. Not a new idea, or even a new approach. The content of > the approach was unique. The musical movement training culminated > in/was transferred into musical improvisation. You can make your > own connections between that and life. One unified whole was the > interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production of > Orpheus at Hellerau. The very architecture of Hellerau was > symbolic. Many, many connections. Hope this helps. k > > > On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> > wrote: > >> Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's >> Eurythmics. We did some work with that years ago in a workshop I >> was in years ago somewhere, maybe at Esalen. >> >> don >> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: >> >>> >>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>> >>>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came >>>> out of the Hellerau environment. Gesture and movement express >>>> or make visual all the musical elements and their >>>> relationships. It?s called Plastique Animee. For instance, how >>>> can you move through space and show Period-Phrase structure with >>>> its different types of cadences, while showing tempo, meter, >>>> dynamics, and articulation at the same time? The whole things >>>> works on a time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. Then >>>> there?s the design of lines. All through gesture and movement. >>>> The ideal Dalcroze class doesn?t talk until after the experience >>>> has happened. The music and the movement speak for themselves. >>>> Why? So words don?t direct the content of the meaning you make >>>> from the experience. A shared dialog afterwards can serve to >>>> name what you?ve experienced and to add information of many >>>> kinds to what you alone have perceived and processed in that >>>> single experience. >>> >>> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose >>> of these Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean >>> anything to me so I am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to >>> aid musicians or composers or poets? What you describe sounds >>> like something more, a bit like some kind of a Western Sufi >>> approach to "higher consciousness". Or something similar. I would >>> love to be filled in on the background. >>> Thanks >>> don >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/fd5781dd/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 11:02:56 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:58:46 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct Message-ID: <4a8.108461b3.32522fc0@aol.com> Hi Don, I love the story about the Bell phone system. I'm intrigued that an organisation is, to you, something mechanical, rigid, conservative - I wonder where that particular construction comes from. My image now is different. A while ago, my image was of something mobile, inside a shell. The shell hardens at times of power difference and protects the organisation. The "inside" bit was the webs of shifting connections, the "shell" represented the public face of the organisation, the shiny reception areas, the behaviours which are expected in meetings, etc. Now I think of an organisation as nothing more than a network, and for me the connections are the organisation, just as, indeed, in your phone exchange story, the network was still working despite the missing connections. I'd go further and say that in my practice, I'd want to work with whatever "is" (missing connections and all) rather than what's espoused, the public face of the organisations. In my experience, the public, espoused face of an organisation doesn't often have that much to do with what's going on "inside it", and I'm starting to think that there isn't really an "inside" and an "outside" to many organisations as we start to see the value of connections. Certainly, in running my online business, the most valuable things have come from seeing customers as part of our business - which they are! - rather than as a distinct group which lies "outside" our business. Some of our customers have pointed us at great products, and one customer (after we asked about ecologically sound packaging) sent us some tubes which would have been incinerated, and they work great for our violin bows. He gets a free product of his choice to recompense him for the shipping he pays when he sends the tubes. That's a fantastic example, I think, of where an organisation can connect outside of itself. i would say network rather than organisation. An organisation still smacks of something mechanical, rigid, conservative. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/4cdfc48b/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 11:13:55 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 12:09:47 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct Message-ID: <416.a9ba611.32523253@aol.com> Sorry - perhaps I should elaborate on a point I made: Of course, there are notionally, hierarchical, command-and-control type organisations. I guess we might think of the military. The quibble I have with that is that even the military recognises the power of the situational / contextual - so the strict command-and-control is only an idealistic model and it's still about people connecting with the changing circumstances they find themselves in. Any organisation, I'd say, which uses and adheres to a command-and-control, rigid hierarchy, mechanistic, conservative way of operating, wouldn't survive. Working like this would be the death of creativity, difference, growth, and an organisation that lives only to correct mistakes would never create the conditions in which novelty can arise and flourish. The ones that are still around, are around because of the connections and the dialogue they've had both internally and with their context. Now I think of an organisation as nothing more than a network -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/219e3c76/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 11:23:44 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 12:19:40 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct In-Reply-To: <4a8.108461b3.32522fc0@aol.com> References: <4a8.108461b3.32522fc0@aol.com> Message-ID: <B33B0D59-82C9-49E1-A06F-65A93D9FBA8A@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Yes, what you say here makes a lot of sense. My attitude toward organisation really derives from Bohm's thinking. He argued that if you take a good idea and organise it, that limits further creativity because it is in a shell which contains its meaning. That's not to say that organisations are wrong, but one needs to be aware of the idea's implicit limits. One important idea that Bohm emphasised was that any word carries a set of meanings that are implicit - e.g. connotations - that derive from the culture and that act subtly, on their own, as tacit parts of the thought process. People like Peter Senge and Bill Isaccs, have done a lot with trying to open up organisations so that they can act more like networks. It sounds like you are doing this too. In any case, these are just distinctions that need to be made, but that also need to be made clear, so we can know what we are talking about. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 10:02, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > Hi Don, > > I love the story about the Bell phone system. > > I'm intrigued that an organisation is, to you, something > mechanical, rigid, conservative - I wonder where that particular > construction comes from. My image now is different. A while ago, my > image was of something mobile, inside a shell. The shell hardens at > times of power difference and protects the organisation. The > "inside" bit was the webs of shifting connections, the "shell" > represented the public face of the organisation, the shiny > reception areas, the behaviours which are expected in meetings, > etc. Now I think of an organisation as nothing more than a network, > and for me the connections are the organisation, just as, indeed, > in your phone exchange story, the network was still working despite > the missing connections. I'd go further and say that in my > practice, I'd want to work with whatever "is" (missing connections > and all) rather than what's espoused, the public face of the > organisations. In my experience, the public, espoused face of an > organisation doesn't often have that much to do with what's going > on "inside it", and I'm starting to think that there isn't really > an "inside" and an "outside" to many organisations as we start to > see the value of connections. > > Certainly, in running my online business, the most valuable things > have come from seeing customers as part of our business - which > they are! - rather than as a distinct group which lies "outside" > our business. Some of our customers have pointed us at great > products, and one customer (after we asked about ecologically sound > packaging) sent us some tubes which would have been incinerated, > and they work great for our violin bows. He gets a free product of > his choice to recompense him for the shipping he pays when he sends > the tubes. That's a fantastic example, I think, of where an > organisation can connect outside of itself. > i would say network rather than organisation. An organisation still > smacks of something mechanical, rigid, conservative. > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/53b36c00/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 12:00:29 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 12:56:26 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct Message-ID: <51c.893ecb0.32523d3d@aol.com> Part of what fed into my thinking, apart from the Masters I'm doing which focusses highly on the power of various work-groups within and outside the programme, is also my experiences in the BBC, which like all broadcasters, has been a "push" model for most of its history and suddenly finds itself in a very different world where anyone can connect through the technology we all now have access to. It's something which is in my lifeblood, I suppose, as I've lived through this change within that organisation. I've never really made that connection myself until I read your comments today, so this has been fantastically generative. Thank you. Does Bohm use the image of a "shell" - if so, I didn't know that. Where does he talk about this? My reading of theory could be a lot better!! People like Peter Senge and Bill Isaccs, have done a lot with trying to open up organisations so that they can act more like networks. It sounds like you are doing this too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/1a7ff0ae/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 12:47:53 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 13:43:47 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct In-Reply-To: <51c.893ecb0.32523d3d@aol.com> References: <51c.893ecb0.32523d3d@aol.com> Message-ID: <F4833CE8-39FF-49D8-B124-31A04CCE5341@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Shell is my word or maybe yours. I think its a good one. I don't think Bohm used it. But he did have a lot to say about organisations. At one stage we wanted to create an organisation to be called Dialogue Associates that woud provide a central information point for those interested in the dialogue project. He was opposed to doing this for the sorts of reasons that I have mentioned, in spite of the fact that part our interest in doing it at that time was that it would have allowed a benefactor to provide him with a salary which would have been very helpful to him after his retirement. UK academic pensions are not noted for their generosity. Peter Senge, BTW, has done a lot of interesting work on the whole concept of organisation. Having taken in Bohm's view he has worked for a long while to develop ways of addressing and dealing with the issues raised. If you aren't aware of him here's a web site you might have a look at: http://www.solonline.org/aboutsol/who/Senge/ don On 2 Oct 2006, at 11:00, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > Part of what fed into my thinking, apart from the Masters I'm doing > which focusses highly on the power of various work-groups within > and outside the programme, is also my experiences in the BBC, which > like all broadcasters, has been a "push" model for most of its > history and suddenly finds itself in a very different world where > anyone can connect through the technology we all now have access > to. It's something which is in my lifeblood, I suppose, as I've > lived through this change within that organisation. I've never > really made that connection myself until I read your comments > today, so this has been fantastically generative. Thank you. > > Does Bohm use the image of a "shell" - if so, I didn't know that. > Where does he talk about this? My reading of theory could be a lot > better!! > People like Peter Senge and Bill Isaccs, have done a lot with > trying to open up organisations so that they can act more like > networks. It sounds like you are doing this too. > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/2342ddc6/attachment.html From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Oct 2 13:28:05 2006 From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 14:24:03 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: rules to break In-Reply-To: <20061003100002.E35412374A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org> Message-ID: <OF149B663F.5E1F73F0-ON852571FB.003EBF4A-852571FB.003EFF3F@dialogos.com> Rodger__ rules are made to be broken? __hmm, sounds a lot like a rule._R . From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Taningbusth To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org. . Love & Rulesaretheretobebroken*, kbot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/9af86dad/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 13:44:04 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 14:39:55 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: rules to break Message-ID: <c4e.4363aaa.32525584@aol.com> Hey, you could have a lot of fun with that! What about: "Rues are made to be broken, except this one"? Rodger__ rules are made to be broken? __hmm, sounds a lot like a rule._R -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/bb8e83d0/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 14:04:26 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:01:58 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <4aa.34f861ea.325218bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <C146788A.34A4%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Whew. Thought my words had somehow misled you. By the way, not ?Eurythmy? - ?Eurhythmics?. Eurhythmy is absolutely not the same thing! Eurhythmy is Rudolph Steiner, who borrowed a lot of Dalcroze, including the variation on the word ?Eurhythmics?, and came after Eurhythmics was established. Eurhythmics is Emile Jaques-Dalcroze. k On 10/2/06 3:24 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote: > HI K - sorry - I worded my email really awkwardly as I was having major > problems with the power going on and off yesterday and didn't want it to > disappear before I'd sent it. What I meant to convey was what you put so > eloquently - that they are different as Eurythmy is dynamic. So I was really > agreeing with this but my words were misleading. Yes, I have only scratched > the surface of this and I'm really interested in what you've said about what's > "behind" Eurhythm. I'm learning!! >> I don?t understand your association of gesture, and mime, with static >> pictures. >> >> >>> Hi Kathy, >>> >>> The gesture and mime idea reminds me of something I've heard of called >>> "body sculpture", where people create a static picture about (say) a set of >>> relationships at work. But I'm very interested in the dynamic rather than >>> the static. > > ********************** > > Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows > in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's > free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your > complete piece of mind. Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk > <http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/> and you'll find out why our customers love > us! > > Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic > band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland, > Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at > http://www.celtmusic.co.uk <http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/> > > Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe > it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will > get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of > music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk > <http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/> > > NEW! > > What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About > leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For > organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see > http://www.yourmusic.biz <http://www.yourmusic.biz/> - building on 24 years > of successful organisational learning! > > COMING SOON > > Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and > fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous > frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at > http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk <http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/f4d1e0ca/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 14:14:52 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:10:44 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <55FEB34A-F2E0-46CE-94FB-8628944B47EB@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C1467AFC.34A6%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Thank you. I don?t know the book you mention, but you?re absolutely right about the ?alternative? world influence. That is an aspect of it that has been denied and suppressed in its history. When JD had to stay in Geneva, his colleagues began to set it on a course more in harmony with the prevailing cultural attitudes. I intend to bring out that aspect of its history. I appreciate your book recommendation. There are definite Theosophical connections to Hellerau, and I have been trying to piece together a kind of ?Occult Establishment? understanding. Yes, we are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what Bohm, and in my case ? the original Hellerau/Dalcroze people were trying to do. I think it?s amazing that Bohm and Dalcroze were on such complimentary paths, yet never knew each other. k On 10/2/06 5:00 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Thanks for this. It fills in a lot of blanks. And, it makes me think of Bohm's > dialogue which began as a rather counterintuitive approach to understanding > the nature of human thought and now, turns out to have exploded into hundreds > of? very different groups and companies - fragments, to my mind - mostly in > the management consulting game, but also in education, religious groups, and > just about every area where there is money to be made, or so it seems. Anyway, > we here are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what Bohm was trying to do. > in the meanwhile, I wonder if you have ever run across The Occult > Establishment by James Webb, first published in 1976. Although, I couldn't > find Eurhythmics in the index, nor Dalcroze, it covers a great deal of what > was going on in the "alternative" world from the beginning of the? 20th > Century and might be useful for your own writing.? > > don > On 2 Oct 2006, at 01:09, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> A twisted variation. ?Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word Eurhythmics >> was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into Georgia. ?Dalcroze >> gave demonstrations everywhere. ?Hellerau was a result of the demonstrations. >> ?The system began in Geneva about 1900, moved to Dresden about 1902, left >> Germany because Dalcroze protested the war to the Kaiser, and returned to >> Geneva. ?Gurdjieff also formulated his system, especially his dances, ?after >> he connected with one of our first generation Dalcroze people, Jeanne >> Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the lighting for Orpheus. >> ?Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when Gurdjieff crossed over, >> and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff?s daughter by another Eurhythmician ? >> Jessmyn Howarth, became and is currently the head of that. ?The concepts of >> Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, that when G presented >> them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. ?Eurhythmics does not contain >> the enneagram. ?The offshoots and applications of Eurhythmics are myriad. >> ?The crossover into other areas are myriad. ?One you may know is the Orff >> Schulwerke for children. ?Gunther Keetman connected with Karl Orff, taught >> him everything she had learned about Dalcroze from Mary Wigman, a Hellerau >> Eurhythmician. ?The rest is history. ? >> >> The background is a book waiting for me to write it. ?Right now, this is the >> best I can do. ?The underlying purpose is to create a Humanistic society, >> integrating body, mind, and spirit, through musical experience that began >> with movement ? plastique animee, not dance. Music is everywhere. ?In >> Dalcroze?s view, everyone is creative. ?Not a new idea, or even a new >> approach. ?The content of the approach was unique. ?The musical movement >> training culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. ?You can >> make your own connections between that and life. ??One unified whole was the >> interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production of Orpheus at >> Hellerau. ?The very architecture of Hellerau was symbolic. ??Many, many >> connections. ?Hope this helps. ?k >> >> >> On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's Eurythmics. We >>> did some work with that years ago in a workshop I was in years ago >>> somewhere, maybe at Esalen. >>> >>> don >>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came out of >>>>> the Hellerau environment. ?Gesture and movement express or make visual all >>>>> the musical elements and their relationships. ?It?s called Plastique >>>>> Animee. ?For instance, how can you move through space and show >>>>> Period-Phrase structure with its different types of cadences, while >>>>> showing tempo, meter, dynamics, and articulation at the same time? ?The >>>>> whole things works on a time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. >>>>> ?Then there?s the design of lines. ?All through gesture and movement. ?The >>>>> ideal Dalcroze class doesn?t talk until after the experience has happened. >>>>> ?The music and the movement speak for themselves. ?Why? ?So words don?t >>>>> direct the content of the meaning you make from the experience. ?A shared >>>>> dialog afterwards can serve to name what you?ve experienced and to add >>>>> information of many kinds to what you alone have perceived and processed >>>>> in that single experience.? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose of these >>>> Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean anything to me so I >>>> am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to aid musicians or composers or >>>> poets? What you describe sounds like something more, a bit like some kind >>>> of a Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or something similar. >>>> I would love to be filled in on the background. >>>> Thanks >>>> don >>>> > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/0f3b4029/attachment.html From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Oct 2 14:41:00 2006 From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:36:57 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <20061003100002.E35412374A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org> Message-ID: <OFA9DEC946.8BD7FA80-ON852571FB.00406AF1-852571FB.0045AC3B@dialogos.com> Rodger__Years ago, after a dialogue with Bohm, Peter Garrett told me many of things I said were interesting, but perhaps I should speak of fewer personal incidents. I told Peter, my personal experiences were the nearest I came to knowing what I was talking about. Reading someone elses theories or visions takes me into a line of abstract assumptions. Its OK. But even if I understood the mechanics of a theory-- without considerable connection with that person, I would not know the context, the state of mind, meaning of the theory to that person. I only know what the theory means-- to me. So, back to first person experience. Although, sometimes glimpses and insights are possible that go beyond the norm. Obviously there is a foundation of memory associations that humans share in common -- more so in people from the same culture, country, community, family. But MEANING can be more unique than a common bond of associations. Depending on the nature/quality of a person, they can feel quite alone among their own people, and if lucky, inexplicably find someone from a completely different culture with whom they feel deep union. So sometimes I think we communicate, often by words, on a level of common memory associations -- and then occasionally we communicate on levels that are not so common. I think, at the level of meaning, each persons experience of reading words is unique. Most people seem numb to what is unique about themselves or other individuals. A sense of security tends to limit ones perspective to stay within a -common view -, even a rebel is only reacting to situations that exist by way of a common view. I am not knocking the idea, but to try and create a thing which can be seen differently by each viewer sounds to me like re-inventing the inevitable. _R . . Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 16:43:53 +0100 From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] 78685r7f&6r757576%&%75 . If, as Rodger has suggested, all images are completely open and all words are images, then how do we communicate with each other at all? don . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/24958d8e/attachment.html From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Oct 2 14:45:46 2006 From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:41:46 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Glitch In-Reply-To: <20061003100002.E35412374A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org> Message-ID: <OF30D6C611.CD8E3764-ON852571FB.0045F6B7-852571FB.00461BEF@dialogos.com> Rodger __Hi Pat, guess it just depends which dictionary we looked in. _R . Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:26:56 EDT From: MarkHarmer@aol.com Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] 78685r7f&6r757576%&%75 To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org . By the way referring to an earlier answer that I can't now find, I'd always understood the root of the word "Glitch" comes from a jewish word meaning "to slip": pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/cb2fa460/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 14:46:29 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:42:33 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? Message-ID: <be7.4f3d4f6.32526425@aol.com> ...and: I think the meanings we take from the things / words / objects / relationships we encounter, change through life.. One of the joys is sometimes discovering new interepretations from old or shared experiences. I sometimes go and play folk music in a pub session. Often the tunes have existed for hundreds of years, but each time we play them they're difference. Our group in our pub also plays them slightly differently from other groups. At one level, this makes no sense to people: why would we endlessly replay old music that's not "commercial"? Part of it is for the joy of connection, and part of it is the joy of insights that come from a new member of the group who introduces a new harmony or rhythm.. I think, at the level of meaning, each persons experience of reading words is unique. Most people seem numb to what is unique about themselves or other individuals. A sense of security tends to limit ones perspective to stay within a -common view -, even a rebel is only reacting to situations that exist by way of a common view. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/53971d56/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 14:50:24 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:46:19 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <OFA9DEC946.8BD7FA80-ON852571FB.00406AF1-852571FB.0045AC3B@dialogos.com> Message-ID: <C1468350.34AB%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Hi ? this has always been the case with me. I suspect my nature/quality has a lot to do with my personal experience. And, I agree with your observation on personal experience. best, k On 10/2/06 8:41 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote: > But MEANING can be more unique than a common bond of associations. Depending > on the nature/quality of a person, they can feel quite alone among their own > people, and if lucky, inexplicably find someone from a completely different > culture with whom they feel deep union. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/34e5bac9/attachment.html From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Oct 2 15:21:45 2006 From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 16:27:16 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: re-inventing the inevitable In-Reply-To: <20061003100002.E35412374A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org> Message-ID: <OF47C60BA2.52A19C03-ON852571FB.0048CF6F-852571FB.0049674A@dialogos.com> Rodger __ On the other hand Mark, re-inventing the inevitable actually does sound like a genuinely challenging art._R . Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:58:08 EDT From: MarkHarmer@aol.com Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] 78685r7f&6r757576%&%75 To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org . Interesting how books diverge - you had me worried and I looked it up on the web and most sources so mention a root of "Glitzen", to slip. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/09552b72/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 16:26:42 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:22:35 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: rules to break In-Reply-To: <c4e.4363aaa.32525584@aol.com> References: <c4e.4363aaa.32525584@aol.com> Message-ID: <379E8267-8C16-4E21-B365-1E76B5590440@donfactor.demon.co.uk> > > What about: "Rues are made to be broken, except this one"? More likely, Rues are made to be cul de sacs. don > Rodger__ rules are made to be broken? __hmm, sounds a lot like a > rule._R > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/71e5e234/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 16:29:30 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:25:35 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: rules to break Message-ID: <548.869768d.32527c4a@aol.com> I've just picked up a bit of work with an organisation, getting a group to explore the relationship between rules and power, who has the rules, that sort of thing. Should be interesting - I'll report back when I've done it later this month. More likely, Rues are made to be cul de sacs. don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/e91401f8/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 16:34:07 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:30:05 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: rules to break In-Reply-To: <548.869768d.32527c4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <C1469B9F.34B5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Please do. k On 10/2/06 10:29 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote: > I've just picked up a bit of work with an organisation, getting a group to > explore the relationship between rules and power, who has the rules, that sort > of thing. Should be interesting - I'll report back when I've done it later > this month. >> >> More likely, Rues are made to be cul de sacs. >> >> don > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/a2950484/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 16:37:34 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:33:35 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <C1467AFC.34A6%tangykatt@earthlink.net> References: <C1467AFC.34A6%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <DF81C03E-26B3-4C5F-A5C0-0B8C587EFEA5@donfactor.demon.co.uk> You never know. I cam across the work of a fascinating and rather obscure artist and Kabbalist who had written a book about Israel which made a lot of sense to me about the attitude of so many Israelis about their situation in the world. I mentioned this to Saral Bohm who had lived there for years. She said, "Oh, he was an old friend of ours." We used to have tea with him in Paris. HIs name is/was Carlo Suares. I shall try to remember to ask Saral if she ever knew Dalcroze. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:14, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > Thank you. I don?t know the book you mention, but you?re > absolutely right about the ?alternative? world influence. That is > an aspect of it that has been denied and suppressed in its > history. When JD had to stay in Geneva, his colleagues began to > set it on a course more in harmony with the prevailing cultural > attitudes. I intend to bring out that aspect of its history. I > appreciate your book recommendation. There are definite > Theosophical connections to Hellerau, and I have been trying to > piece together a kind of ?Occult Establishment? understanding. > Yes, we are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what Bohm, and > in my case ? the original Hellerau/Dalcroze people were trying to > do. I think it?s amazing that Bohm and Dalcroze were on such > complimentary paths, yet never knew each other. k > > > On 10/2/06 5:00 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> > wrote: > >> Thanks for this. It fills in a lot of blanks. And, it makes me >> think of Bohm's dialogue which began as a rather counterintuitive >> approach to understanding the nature of human thought and now, >> turns out to have exploded into hundreds of very different groups >> and companies - fragments, to my mind - mostly in the management >> consulting game, but also in education, religious groups, and just >> about every area where there is money to be made, or so it seems. >> Anyway, we here are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what >> Bohm was trying to do. in the meanwhile, I wonder if you have ever >> run across The Occult Establishment by James Webb, first published >> in 1976. Although, I couldn't find Eurhythmics in the index, nor >> Dalcroze, it covers a great deal of what was going on in the >> "alternative" world from the beginning of the 20th Century and >> might be useful for your own writing. >> >> don >> On 2 Oct 2006, at 01:09, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >> >>> A twisted variation. Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word >>> Eurhythmics was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up >>> into Georgia. Dalcroze gave demonstrations everywhere. Hellerau >>> was a result of the demonstrations. The system began in Geneva >>> about 1900, moved to Dresden about 1902, left Germany because >>> Dalcroze protested the war to the Kaiser, and returned to >>> Geneva. Gurdjieff also formulated his system, especially his >>> dances, after he connected with one of our first generation >>> Dalcroze people, Jeanne Allemande Saltzman and her husband who >>> did the lighting for Orpheus. Allemande became the head of the >>> Gurdjieff work when Gurdjieff crossed over, and when JAS also >>> crossed, Gurdjieff?s daughter by another Eurhythmician ? Jessmyn >>> Howarth, became and is currently the head of that. The concepts >>> of Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, that when >>> G presented them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. >>> Eurhythmics does not contain the enneagram. The offshoots and >>> applications of Eurhythmics are myriad. The crossover into other >>> areas are myriad. One you may know is the Orff Schulwerke for >>> children. Gunther Keetman connected with Karl Orff, taught him >>> everything she had learned about Dalcroze from Mary Wigman, a >>> Hellerau Eurhythmician. The rest is history. >>> >>> The background is a book waiting for me to write it. Right now, >>> this is the best I can do. The underlying purpose is to create a >>> Humanistic society, integrating body, mind, and spirit, through >>> musical experience that began with movement ? plastique animee, >>> not dance. Music is everywhere. In Dalcroze?s view, everyone is >>> creative. Not a new idea, or even a new approach. The content >>> of the approach was unique. The musical movement training >>> culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. You >>> can make your own connections between that and life. One >>> unified whole was the interweaving many forms of art culminating >>> in the production of Orpheus at Hellerau. The very architecture >>> of Hellerau was symbolic. Many, many connections. Hope this >>> helps. k >>> >>> >>> On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" >>> <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's >>>> Eurythmics. We did some work with that years ago in a workshop I >>>> was in years ago somewhere, maybe at Esalen. >>>> >>>> don >>>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito >>>>>> came out of the Hellerau environment. Gesture and movement >>>>>> express or make visual all the musical elements and their >>>>>> relationships. It?s called Plastique Animee. For instance, >>>>>> how can you move through space and show Period-Phrase >>>>>> structure with its different types of cadences, while showing >>>>>> tempo, meter, dynamics, and articulation at the same time? >>>>>> The whole things works on a time-space-energy in a gravity >>>>>> field continuum. Then there?s the design of lines. All >>>>>> through gesture and movement. The ideal Dalcroze class >>>>>> doesn?t talk until after the experience has happened. The >>>>>> music and the movement speak for themselves. Why? So words >>>>>> don?t direct the content of the meaning you make from the >>>>>> experience. A shared dialog afterwards can serve to name what >>>>>> you?ve experienced and to add information of many kinds to >>>>>> what you alone have perceived and processed in that single >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying >>>>> purpose of these Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you >>>>> mention mean anything to me so I am at a total loss. Are the >>>>> classes meant to aid musicians or composers or poets? What you >>>>> describe sounds like something more, a bit like some kind of a >>>>> Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or something >>>>> similar. I would love to be filled in on the background. >>>>> Thanks >>>>> don >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/cfac34cb/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 16:43:11 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:39:08 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Glitch In-Reply-To: <OF30D6C611.CD8E3764-ON852571FB.0045F6B7-852571FB.00461BEF@dialogos.com> References: <OF30D6C611.CD8E3764-ON852571FB.0045F6B7-852571FB.00461BEF@dialogos.com> Message-ID: <79597A82-E1AC-4A18-8179-8D7A10AF8F0F@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Peter Garrett always tried to tell me that I should be more definite and sound certain about my views. I should stop saying things like, "It seems to me...." But Peter was a strange goose -gander? When it came to speaking from a personal, first person, point of view he refused. He said, "That would be letting it all hang out. That way lies madness." He stopped coming to the London group after that. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:45, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote: > Rodger __Hi Pat, guess it just depends which dictionary we looked > in. _R > . > Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:26:56 EDT > From: MarkHarmer@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] 78685r7f&6r757576%&%75 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > . > By the way referring to an earlier answer that I can't now find, > I'd always > understood the root of the word "Glitch" comes from a jewish word > meaning "to > slip": > pat > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 16:50:22 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:46:19 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Glitch Message-ID: <c61.2f9fcb4.3252812e@aol.com> That's interesting. Speaking from a first person point of view is, surely, the only place you can speak from. And isn't it OK to do this, as it's up to others to make their own sense of what anyone says, and (if you believe Meade and the social constructionists) the way meaning is made is in the relation between the gesture and the response - rather than what any one person says. When it came to speaking from a personal, first person, point of view he refused. He said, "That would be letting it all hang out. That way lies madness." He stopped coming to the London group after that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/8db9f0c9/attachment.html From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Mon Oct 2 16:52:33 2006 From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:48:26 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep In-Reply-To: <79597A82-E1AC-4A18-8179-8D7A10AF8F0F@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061002145233.93656.qmail@web55015.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which sleep plays a pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this list. Your feedback is welcome and might be helpful. Can you please speak about how much you sleep every day, and when, and if your sleep is broken up, and if you take naps, and how your sleep-behaviours changed over the years, and due to what, and so on. What "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in your life? Do you have sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/fe8d2fd0/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 16:53:11 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:49:07 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <be7.4f3d4f6.32526425@aol.com> References: <be7.4f3d4f6.32526425@aol.com> Message-ID: <B783FA15-0F63-401F-8BB1-D2CAE7298350@donfactor.demon.co.uk> I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music they have the coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. perform their own extra bit of the piece making it unique and more personal. When, a few years ago, Peter Krauss introduced the idea of what he called an optical dialogue I was excited because I thought that the concept of a dialogue of images where each participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial piece might end up with some truly original, communal art. But it didn't happen. People were more keen to just send it stuff they found on the net with no comment and no relationship to any previous posts. Pity. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > ...and: I think the meanings we take from the things / words / > objects / relationships we encounter, change through life.. > > One of the joys is sometimes discovering new interepretations from > old or shared experiences. > > I sometimes go and play folk music in a pub session. Often the > tunes have existed for hundreds of years, but each time we play > them they're difference. Our group in our pub also plays them > slightly differently from other groups. > > At one level, this makes no sense to people: why would we endlessly > replay old music that's not "commercial"? Part of it is for the joy > of connection, and part of it is the joy of insights that come from > a new member of the group who introduces a new harmony or rhythm.. > I think, at the level of meaning, each persons experience of > reading words is unique. Most people seem numb to what is unique > about themselves or other individuals. A sense of security tends to > limit ones perspective to stay within a -common view -, even a > rebel is only reacting to situations that exist by way of a common > view. > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/fb6cd5c2/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 16:58:01 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:53:55 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Glitch In-Reply-To: <c61.2f9fcb4.3252812e@aol.com> References: <c61.2f9fcb4.3252812e@aol.com> Message-ID: <65402035-44E5-441D-BB76-AAE50D8C9050@donfactor.demon.co.uk> There was probably a lot more to than just that. Peter went on to work as a consultant for a big firm and to teach dialogue to people who want to come to his seminars where he, in the role of facilitator could remain a bit aloof. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 15:50, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > That's interesting. Speaking from a first person point of view is, > surely, the only place you can speak from. And isn't it OK to do > this, as it's up to others to make their own sense of what anyone > says, and (if you believe Meade and the social constructionists) > the way meaning is made is in the relation between the gesture and > the response - rather than what any one person says. > When it came to speaking from > a personal, first person, point of view he refused. He said, "That > would be letting it all hang out. That way lies madness." He stopped > coming to the London group after that. > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/3ae009b4/attachment.html From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 2 17:01:24 2006 From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:57:16 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? Message-ID: <531.8da8a4f.325283c4@aol.com> Thank you Don - great to get reflections back from this group as I'm still learning about dialogue (hope never to stop really!!). I like the photoshop idea and I can see how that could work - I suppose a wiki is a similar beastie. I ran one in the BBC, hoping that the shape it took would tell us about people's perceived view of what the organisation "was". Well, no-one really used it. So perhaps (thinking about it) it did tell us something after all! Have you ever come across a collaborative drawing site? That's rather fun - you get to see lots of cursors dancing around the screen as people draw pictures and others add to them. It's chaotic and strangely compulsive at the same time: there's one at _http://ericdeis.com/content/beautyandchaos/beautyandchaos.php_ (http://ericdeis.com/content/beautyandchaos/beautyandchaos.php) Start off some tic-tac-toe / noughts and crosses (depending where you live!) and see people respond... a blast! I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music they have the coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. perform their own extra bit of the piece making it unique and more personal. When, a few years ago, Pe ter Krauss introduced the idea of what he called an optical dialogue I was excited because I thought that the concept of a dialogue of images where each participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial piece might end up with some truly original, communal art. But it didn't happen. People were more keen to just send it stuff they found on the net with no comment and no relationship to any previous posts. Pity. don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/134aeb06/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 17:10:21 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:06:47 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <DF81C03E-26B3-4C5F-A5C0-0B8C587EFEA5@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C146A41D.34C0%tangykatt@earthlink.net> That would be great. 1865 ? 1950 are his dates. Because i believe that Dalcroze?s contributions to the system he initiated and spearheaded are somewhat mythologized, and others who contributed to it were not given adequate or accurate credit, it might be a good idea to also mention Saltzmann or the de Saltzmanns, the architect Lauerwerks who designed Hellerau to Dalcroze?s and Appia?s artistic specifications while adding his own touch, and Mathis-Lussy. Dalcroze was also a personal friend of Claparede, and I believe that Jung lived not too far from Geneva. There have been some excellent Dalcroze teachers in Israel. One is named Toni Steinitz. The German financiers of Hellerau were the brothers Harald and Wolf Dohrn. Wolf died in a skiing accident, and Harald became very active in The White Rose ? executed by the Nazis as a traitor on the the day before their surrender. Hitler tried to prove that Dalcroze was a Jew so he could come down on the Dalcrozians everywhere, including those whose chose to stay in Germany i.e. Mary Wigman, for one. The three most influential people in my thinking right now are Bohm, Dalcroze, and Pema Chodron. Do you know if any work has been done on using the ideas in ?On Creativity? in a teaching approach? I had a fabulous teacher named Frances Minor who did, and I have also ? thanks to having been introduced by Frances. I wondered if anyone else had. Maybe in the Kibbutz? I would love to hear about those experiences. best, k On 10/2/06 10:37 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > You never know. I cam across the work of a fascinating and rather obscure > artist and? Kabbalist who had written a book about Israel which made a lot of > sense to me about the attitude of so many Israelis about their situation in > the world. I mentioned this to Saral Bohm who had lived there for years. She > said, "Oh, he was an old friend of ours." We used to have tea with him in > Paris. HIs name is/was Carlo Suares.? > > ?I shall try to remember to ask Saral if she ever knew Dalcroze. > > don > On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:14, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> Thank you. ?I don?t know the book you mention, but you?re absolutely right >> about the ?alternative? world influence. ?That is an aspect of it that has >> been denied and suppressed in its history. ?When JD had to stay in Geneva, >> his colleagues began to set it on a course more in harmony with the >> prevailing cultural attitudes. ?I intend to bring out that aspect of its >> history. ?I appreciate your book recommendation. ?There are definite >> Theosophical connections to Hellerau, and I have been trying to piece >> together a kind of ?Occult Establishment? understanding. >> Yes, we are a sort of hard-core still trying to do what Bohm, and in my case >> ? the original Hellerau/Dalcroze people were trying to do. ?I think it?s >> amazing that Bohm and Dalcroze were on such complimentary paths, yet never >> knew each other. ?k >> >> >> On 10/2/06 5:00 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks for this. It fills in a lot of blanks. And, it makes me think of >>> Bohm's dialogue which began as a rather counterintuitive approach to >>> understanding the nature of human thought and now, turns out to have >>> exploded into hundreds of? very different groups and companies - fragments, >>> to my mind - mostly in the management consulting game, but also in >>> education, religious groups, and just about every area where there is money >>> to be made, or so it seems. Anyway, we here are a sort of hard-core still >>> trying to do what Bohm was trying to do. in the meanwhile, I wonder if you >>> have ever run across The Occult Establishment by James Webb, first published >>> in 1976. Although, I couldn't find Eurhythmics in the index, nor Dalcroze, >>> it covers a great deal of what was going on in the "alternative" world from >>> the beginning of the? 20th Century and might be useful for your own >>> writing.? >>> >>> don >>> On 2 Oct 2006, at 01:09, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>> >>> >>>> A twisted variation. ?Steiner came after Dalcroze and the word Eurhythmics >>>> was known all over Europe, America, Russia and up into Georgia. ?Dalcroze >>>> gave demonstrations everywhere. ?Hellerau was a result of the >>>> demonstrations. ?The system began in Geneva about 1900, moved to Dresden >>>> about 1902, left Germany because Dalcroze protested the war to the Kaiser, >>>> and returned to Geneva. ?Gurdjieff also formulated his system, especially >>>> his dances, ?after he connected with one of our first generation Dalcroze >>>> people, Jeanne Allemande Saltzman and her husband who did the lighting for >>>> Orpheus. ?Allemande became the head of the Gurdjieff work when Gurdjieff >>>> crossed over, and when JAS also crossed, Gurdjieff?s daughter by another >>>> Eurhythmician ? Jessmyn Howarth, became and is currently the head of that. >>>> ?The concepts of Eurhythmics are so embedded in the Gurdjieff dances, that >>>> when G presented them in Paris, the Dalcroze people picketed. ?Eurhythmics >>>> does not contain the enneagram. ?The offshoots and applications of >>>> Eurhythmics are myriad. ?The crossover into other areas are myriad. ?One >>>> you may know is the Orff Schulwerke for children. ?Gunther Keetman >>>> connected with Karl Orff, taught him everything she had learned about >>>> Dalcroze from Mary Wigman, a Hellerau Eurhythmician. ?The rest is history. >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ?The background is a book waiting for me to write it. ?Right now, this is >>>> the best I can do. ?The underlying purpose is to create a Humanistic >>>> society, integrating body, mind, and spirit, through musical experience >>>> that began with movement ? plastique animee, not dance. Music is >>>> everywhere. ?In Dalcroze?s view, everyone is creative. ?Not a new idea, or >>>> even a new approach. ?The content of the approach was unique. ?The musical >>>> movement training culminated in/was transferred into musical improvisation. >>>> ?You can make your own connections between that and life. ??One unified >>>> whole was the interweaving many forms of art culminating in the production >>>> of Orpheus at Hellerau. ?The very architecture of Hellerau was symbolic. >>>> ??Many, many connections. ?Hope this helps. ?k >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ?On 10/1/06 2:02 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> >>>>> Further, does it have anything to do with Rudolf Steiner's Eurythmics. We >>>>> did some work with that years ago in a workshop I was in years ago >>>>> somewhere, maybe at Esalen. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?don >>>>> ?On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:54, Don Factor wrote: >>>>> ? >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?On 1 Oct 2006, at 18:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: >>>>>> ? >>>>>> ? >>>>>> >>>>>>> He was a student of Delsarte?s son in Paris, and Michio Ito came out of >>>>>>> the Hellerau environment. ?Gesture and movement express or make visual >>>>>>> all the musical elements and their relationships. ?It?s called Plastique >>>>>>> Animee. ?For instance, how can you move through space and show >>>>>>> Period-Phrase structure with its different types of cadences, while >>>>>>> showing tempo, meter, dynamics, and articulation at the same time? ?The >>>>>>> whole things works on a time-space-energy in a gravity field continuum. >>>>>>> ?Then there?s the design of lines. ?All through gesture and movement. >>>>>>> ?The ideal Dalcroze class doesn?t talk until after the experience has >>>>>>> happened. ?The music and the movement speak for themselves. ?Why? ?So >>>>>>> words don?t direct the content of the meaning you make from the >>>>>>> experience. ?A shared dialog afterwards can serve to name what you?ve >>>>>>> experienced and to add information of many kinds to what you alone have >>>>>>> perceived and processed in that single experience.? >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Kathy, can you give me an inkling of what the underlying purpose of >>>>>> these Dalcroze classes is? None of the names you mention mean anything to >>>>>> me so I am at a total loss. Are the classes meant to aid musicians or >>>>>> composers or poets? What you describe sounds like something more, a bit >>>>>> like some kind of a Western Sufi approach to "higher consciousness". Or >>>>>> something similar. I would love to be filled in on the background. >>>>>> ?Thanks >>>>>> ?don >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/19374bec/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 17:14:00 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:10:15 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Glitch In-Reply-To: <c61.2f9fcb4.3252812e@aol.com> Message-ID: <C146A4F8.34C1%tangykatt@earthlink.net> I agree! k On 10/2/06 10:50 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote: > That's interesting. Speaking from a first person point of view is, surely, the > only place you can speak from. And isn't it OK to do this, as it's up to > others to make their own sense of what anyone says, and (if you believe Meade > and the social constructionists) the way meaning is made is in the relation > between the gesture and the response - rather than what any one person says. >> When it came to speaking from >> a personal, first person, point of view he refused. He said, "That >> would be letting it all hang out. That way lies madness." He stopped >> coming to the London group after that. > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/81cfe56b/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 17:17:27 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:13:40 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep In-Reply-To: <20061002145233.93656.qmail@web55015.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <C146A5C7.34C3%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Hi Zoe ? arthritis and cervical vertebrae issues changed my sleep pattern. I will sometimes wake up at 3 AM with neck pain, or numbness in my fingers. I have to get up to restore normalcy. Then it?s sometimes hard to get back to sleep. After a chiropractic adjustment, in particular, I sleep uninterruptedly my usual 8 hours. k On 10/2/06 10:52 AM, "Zoe Chu" <zoechuzero@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which sleep plays a > pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this list. Your feedback > is welcome and might be helpful. Can you please speak about how much you sleep > every day, and when, and if your sleep is broken up, and if you take naps, and > how your sleep-behaviours changed over the years, and due to what, and so on. > What "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in your life? Do you have > sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe > > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview> > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/a118f8bf/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 17:22:43 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:18:42 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <B783FA15-0F63-401F-8BB1-D2CAE7298350@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C146A703.34C5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Don ? I don?t mean to be rude, but I thought you might like to know ? it?s the cadenza where the performer used to add their own bit to the concerto. Then, as improvisation fell out of style or favor, certain cadenzas were written down for the performer to play. Only recently has the improvisation aspect been somewhat revived. The Coda is simply a short ending by the composer, and may or may not be in a composition. k On 10/2/06 10:53 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music they have the > coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. perform their own extra bit > of the piece making it unique and more personal. When, a few years ago, Peter > Krauss introduced the idea of what he called an optical dialogue I was excited > because I thought that the concept of a dialogue of images where each > participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial piece might > end up with some truly original, communal art. But it didn't happen. People > were more keen to just send it stuff they found on the net with no comment and > no relationship to any previous posts. Pity. > > don > > > On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: > >> >> >> >> ...and: I think the meanings we take from the things / words / objects / >> relationships we encounter, change through life.. >> >> ? >> >> One of the joys is sometimes discovering new interepretations from old or >> shared experiences. >> >> ? >> >> I sometimes go and play folk music in a pub session. Often the tunes have >> existed for hundreds of years, but each time we play them they're difference. >> Our group in our pub also plays them slightly differently from other groups. >> >> ? >> >> At one level, this makes no sense to people: why would we endlessly replay >> old music that's not "commercial"? Part of it is for the joy of connection, >> and part of it is the joy of insights that come from a new member of the >> group who introduces a new harmony or rhythm.. >> >>> I think, at the level of meaning, each persons experience of reading words >>> is unique. Most people seem numb to what is unique about themselves or >>> other individuals. A sense of security tends to limit ones perspective to >>> stay within a -common view -, even a rebel is only reacting to situations >>> that exist by way of a common view. >> >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/2f9406b4/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 17:31:28 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:27:21 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <C146A41D.34C0%tangykatt@earthlink.net> References: <C146A41D.34C0%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <A9E4A25F-FE22-449C-A0A0-551F9E922F2B@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Now you've got my curiosity up and running. I don't think there is much likelyhood of Bohm and Dalcroze having met because in the years leading up to the year of D's death B was in Berkeley working under J Robert Oppenheimer and finishing his PhD. After that he went to Princeton where he was teaching until he got caught up in the McCarthy witch hunts. And then he was in Brazil before going to Israel and finally to Britain, He did meet a lot of interesting people as a result of his association with Krishnamurti an occasionally one of them comes up in conversation with Saral. For years now I have been trying to persuade her to write her own memoire but it hasn't happened yet. don. On 2 Oct 2006, at 16:10, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > That would be great. 1865 ? 1950 are his dates. > Because i believe that Dalcroze?s contributions to the system he > initiated and spearheaded are somewhat mythologized, and others who > contributed to it were not given adequate or accurate credit, it > might be a good idea to also mention Saltzmann or the de > Saltzmanns, the architect Lauerwerks who designed Hellerau to > Dalcroze?s and Appia?s artistic specifications while adding his own > touch, and Mathis-Lussy. Dalcroze was also a personal friend of > Claparede, and I believe that Jung lived not too far from Geneva. > There have been some excellent Dalcroze teachers in Israel. One is > named Toni Steinitz. > The German financiers of Hellerau were the brothers Harald and Wolf > Dohrn. Wolf died in a skiing accident, and Harald became very > active in The White Rose ? executed by the Nazis as a traitor on > the the day before their surrender. Hitler tried to prove that > Dalcroze was a Jew so he could come down on the Dalcrozians > everywhere, including those whose chose to stay in Germany i.e. > Mary Wigman, for one. > > The three most influential people in my thinking right now are > Bohm, Dalcroze, and Pema Chodron. Do you know if any work has been > done on using the ideas in ?On Creativity? in a teaching approach? > I had a fabulous teacher named Frances Minor who did, and I have > also ? thanks to having been introduced by Frances. I wondered if > anyone else had. Maybe in the Kibbutz? I would love to hear > about those experiences. best, k > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/284ebd14/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 17:33:49 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:29:41 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep In-Reply-To: <20061002145233.93656.qmail@web55015.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <20061002145233.93656.qmail@web55015.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77417A72-81C3-459D-AAFB-9450BB162A46@donfactor.demon.co.uk> What is it about sleep that you are interested in? I mean it's a big subject. don On 2 Oct 2006, at 15:52, Zoe Chu wrote: > Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which sleep > plays a pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this > list. Your feedback is welcome and might be helpful. Can you please > speak about how much you sleep every day, and when, and if your > sleep is broken up, and if you take naps, and how your sleep- > behaviours changed over the years, and due to what, and so on. What > "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in your life? Do you have > sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/0b80e69b/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 18:00:21 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 18:56:16 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss In-Reply-To: <A9E4A25F-FE22-449C-A0A0-551F9E922F2B@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C146AFD5.34CD%tangykatt@earthlink.net> I agree ? not unless Bohm was in Europe sometime before the Princeton-McCarthy years. Dalcroze never came to the USA, but his first generation students did, as did Hanya Holm, 2nd generation Dalcroze trained dancer-choreographer. Mme. de Salzmann came to the US, and founded the NYC chapter of the Gurdjieff Foundation, now headed by Dushka Howarth. The first people to bring Dalcroze to the US were Placido de Montoliu in 1913, followed by Marguerite Heaton and Suzanne Ferriere. Ferriere had been with Dalcroze since the inception of his ideas and experiments, and she was just a little girl. And, because it was all the rage, even Upton Sinclair wrote a novel about it, Bohm must have heard about it, whether or not he took it seriously. Krishnamurti does not come up in my research on Dalcroze origins and connections. Dalcroze, rather the system, arrived in Israel in the person of Theresa Tirza Gottlieb, when it was still known as Palestine. Two more arrived in 1930 and 1932. They were followed by many in 1933. So those are the possibilities. k On 10/2/06 11:31 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Now you've got my curiosity up and running.? I don't think there is much > likelyhood of Bohm and Dalcroze having met because in the years leading up to > the year of D's death B was in Berkeley working under J Robert Oppenheimer and > finishing his PhD. After that he went to Princeton where he was teaching until > he got caught up in the McCarthy witch hunts. And then he was in Brazil before > going to Israel and finally to Britain,? > He did meet a lot of interesting people as a result of his association with > Krishnamurti an occasionally one of them comes up in conversation with Saral. > For years now I have been trying to persuade her to write her own memoire but > it hasn't happened yet. > > don.? > On 2 Oct 2006, at 16:10, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> That would be great. ?1865 ? 1950 are his dates. >> Because i believe that Dalcroze?s contributions to the system he initiated >> and spearheaded are somewhat mythologized, and others who contributed to it >> were not given adequate or accurate credit, it might be a good idea to also >> mention Saltzmann or the de Saltzmanns, the architect Lauerwerks who designed >> Hellerau to Dalcroze?s and Appia?s artistic specifications while adding his >> own touch, and Mathis-Lussy. ?Dalcroze was also a personal friend of >> Claparede, and I believe that Jung lived not too far from Geneva. >> There have been some excellent Dalcroze teachers in Israel. ?One is named >> Toni Steinitz. ? >> The German financiers of Hellerau were the brothers Harald and Wolf Dohrn. >> ?Wolf died in a skiing accident, and Harald became very active in The White >> Rose ? executed by the Nazis as a traitor on the the day before their >> surrender. ?Hitler tried to prove that Dalcroze was a Jew so he could come >> down on the Dalcrozians everywhere, including those whose chose to stay in >> Germany i.e. Mary Wigman, for one. >> >> The three most influential people in my thinking right now are Bohm, >> Dalcroze, and Pema Chodron. ?Do you know if any work has been done on using >> the ideas in ?On Creativity? in a teaching approach? ?I had a fabulous >> teacher named Frances Minor who did, and I have also ? thanks to having been >> introduced by Frances. ??I wondered if anyone else had. ??Maybe in the >> Kibbutz? ?I would love to hear about those experiences. ?best, k >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/22d37bec/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 2 18:53:24 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Tue Oct 3 19:49:23 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <C146A703.34C5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> References: <C146A703.34C5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7BF21314-E950-4776-84E4-70B22C612418@donfactor.demon.co.uk> It's never rude to correct an error for a friend. Thanks. But where does the cadenza go? don On 2 Oct 2006, at 16:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > Don ? I don?t mean to be rude, but I thought you might like to know > ? it?s the cadenza where the performer used to add their own bit to > the concerto. Then, as improvisation fell out of style or favor, > certain cadenzas were written down for the performer to play. Only > recently has the improvisation aspect been somewhat revived. The > Coda is simply a short ending by the composer, and may or may not > be in a composition. k > > > On 10/2/06 10:53 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> > wrote: > >> I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music >> they have the coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. >> perform their own extra bit of the piece making it unique and more >> personal. When, a few years ago, Peter Krauss introduced the idea >> of what he called an optical dialogue I was excited because I >> thought that the concept of a dialogue of images where each >> participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial >> piece might end up with some truly original, communal art. But it >> didn't happen. People were more keen to just send it stuff they >> found on the net with no comment and no relationship to any >> previous posts. Pity. >> >> don >> >> >> On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> ...and: I think the meanings we take from the things / words / >>> objects / relationships we encounter, change through life.. >>> >>> >>> >>> One of the joys is sometimes discovering new interepretations >>> from old or shared experiences. >>> >>> >>> >>> I sometimes go and play folk music in a pub session. Often the >>> tunes have existed for hundreds of years, but each time we play >>> them they're difference. Our group in our pub also plays them >>> slightly differently from other groups. >>> >>> >>> >>> At one level, this makes no sense to people: why would we >>> endlessly replay old music that's not "commercial"? Part of it is >>> for the joy of connection, and part of it is the joy of insights >>> that come from a new member of the group who introduces a new >>> harmony or rhythm.. >>> >>>> I think, at the level of meaning, each persons experience of >>>> reading words is unique. Most people seem numb to what is >>>> unique about themselves or other individuals. A sense of >>>> security tends to limit ones perspective to stay within a - >>>> common view -, even a rebel is only reacting to situations >>>> that exist by way of a common view. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/715a8208/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 19:26:31 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 20:22:32 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: everybody is different? In-Reply-To: <7BF21314-E950-4776-84E4-70B22C612418@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C146C407.34D5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> There are similarities and differences between Coda and Cadenza. Although both come at the end, and use some of the same strategies, the cadenza is applied only to a concerto, and once was ? now being revived ? improvised. The Coda has neither of these characteristics. As for the length of the Coda, it varies by composer, and historical era. It also uses many of the same strategies that the cadenza uses. That?s because finding different ways to develop, vary, or change the theme is what most music does. Hope that helps, and I?m glad I didn?t offend. best, k On 10/2/06 12:53 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > It's never rude to correct an error for a friend. Thanks. But where does the > cadenza go? > don > On 2 Oct 2006, at 16:22, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> Don ? I don?t mean to be rude, but I thought you might like to know ? it?s >> the cadenza where the performer used to add their own bit to the concerto. >> ?Then, as improvisation fell out of style or favor, certain cadenzas were >> written down for the performer to play. ?Only recently has the improvisation >> aspect been somewhat revived. ?The Coda is simply a short ending by the >> composer, and may or may not be in a composition. ?k >> >> >> On 10/2/06 10:53 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music they have >>> the coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. perform their own >>> extra bit of the piece making it unique and more personal. When, a few years >>> ago, Peter Krauss introduced the idea of what he called an optical dialogue >>> I was excited because I thought that the concept of a dialogue of images >>> where each participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial >>> piece might end up with some truly original, communal art. But it didn't >>> happen. People were more keen to just send it stuff they found on the net >>> with no comment and no relationship to any previous posts. Pity. >>> >>> don >>> >>> >>> On 2 Oct 2006, at 13:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ...and: I think the meanings we take from the things / words / objects / >>>> relationships we encounter, change through life.. >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> One of the joys is sometimes discovering new interepretations from old or >>>> shared experiences. >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> I sometimes go and play folk music in a pub session. Often the tunes have >>>> existed for hundreds of years, but each time we play them they're >>>> difference. Our group in our pub also plays them slightly differently from >>>> other groups. >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> At one level, this makes no sense to people: why would we endlessly replay >>>> old music that's not "commercial"? Part of it is for the joy of connection, >>>> and part of it is the joy of insights that come from a new member of the >>>> group who introduces a new harmony or rhythm.. >>>> ? >>>> >>>>> I think, ??at the level of meaning, each persons experience of reading >>>>> words is unique. ??Most people seem numb to what is unique about >>>>> themselves or other individuals. ??A sense of security tends to limit ones >>>>> perspective to stay within a -common ??view -, even a rebel is only >>>>> reacting to situations that exist by way of a ??common view. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> info: >>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>>> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> >>>> >>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> dialogue facilitator: >>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>>> admin@david-bohm.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061002/cd887b4f/attachment.html From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 2 19:45:10 2006 From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide) Date: Tue Oct 3 20:41:09 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep In-Reply-To: <77417A72-81C3-459D-AAFB-9450BB162A46@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <BAY107-F13AB5048A14E32AB609891A81F0@phx.gbl> Godog, you thinkg it 'feels' good to "DO" bohm/dialog... Do you have any idea how good it feels NOT to 'do' bohm/dialog! That said/snored: Back to the Nap, Subscribers Bless, Kbot >From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:33:49 +0100 > >What is it about sleep that you are interested in? I mean it's a big >subject. >don >On 2 Oct 2006, at 15:52, Zoe Chu wrote: > >>Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which sleep plays >>a pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this list. Your >>feedback is welcome and might be helpful. Can you please speak about how >>much you sleep every day, and when, and if your sleep is broken up, and >>if you take naps, and how your sleep- behaviours changed over the years, >>and due to what, and so on. What "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in >>your life? Do you have sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe >> >>Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. >>_______________________________________________ >>info: >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >>dialogue facilitator: >>facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >>Administrator of the mailing list: >>admin@david-bohm.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >info: >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >dialogue facilitator: >facilitator@david-bohm.net > >Administrator of the mailing list: >admin@david-bohm.net > >_______________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Search—say hello! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 20:12:26 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Tue Oct 3 21:08:21 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F13AB5048A14E32AB609891A81F0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C146CECA.34D7%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Since I can't figure out how to do this on the computer, I'm sending two mental images - Gabriel blowing his horn, and a crowing rooster. What's the message????????k On 10/2/06 1:45 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote: > Godog, you thinkg it 'feels' good to "DO" bohm/dialog... > > Do you have any idea how good it feels > > NOT to 'do' bohm/dialog! > > > > > That said/snored: Back to the Nap, Subscribers > > > > > > Bless, Kbot > > >> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> >> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep >> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:33:49 +0100 >> >> What is it about sleep that you are interested in? I mean it's a big >> subject. >> don >> On 2 Oct 2006, at 15:52, Zoe Chu wrote: >> >>> Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which sleep plays >>> a pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this list. Your >>> feedback is welcome and might be helpful. Can you please speak about how >>> much you sleep every day, and when, and if your sleep is broken up, and >>> if you take naps, and how your sleep- behaviours changed over the years, >>> and due to what, and so on. What "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in >>> your life? Do you have sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe >>> >>> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> info: >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >>> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >>> >>> dialogue facilitator: >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net >>> >>> Administrator of the mailing list: >>> admin@david-bohm.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > The next generation of Search?say hello! > http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA> G > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 2 23:06:25 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Wed Oct 4 00:05:14 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Sleep Message-ID: <20061002.140625.880.2.franis_franis@juno.com> I like to sleep - and dream. Have tried a number of odd sleeping schedules - found one that works for me, when I need more time, I just start on this schedule and sleep half the time I need to...speaking of which, I'm tired now, but I have to get ready for the storm that's coming tomorrow afternoon...or so they say. Franis On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:33:49 +0100 Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes: > What is it about sleep that you are interested in? I mean it's a big > > subject. > don > On 2 Oct 2006, at 15:52, Zoe Chu wrote: > > > Hi List - Our group here at M.I.T. started a project in which > sleep > > plays a pivotal role. I have not seen any talk about sleep on this > > > list. Your feedback is welcome and might be helpful. Can you > please > > speak about how much you sleep every day, and when, and if your > > sleep is broken up, and if you take naps, and how your sleep- > > behaviours changed over the years, and due to what, and so on. > What > > "role" does sleep and sleeping "play" in your life? Do you have > > sleep-"stories"? Appreciated --- Zoe > > > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. > > _______________________________________________ > > info: > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > > dialogue facilitator: > > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > > Administrator of the mailing list: > > admin@david-bohm.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 2 23:02:16 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Wed Oct 4 00:05:15 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] drawing link Message-ID: <20061002.140625.880.1.franis_franis@juno.com> was a fun link to draw with others, thanks mark! have you seen the soda constructor? http://www.sodaplay.com/constructor/ People make machines/bugs, etc. that can move - Franis On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:01:24 EDT MarkHarmer@aol.com writes: > > > Thank you Don - great to get reflections back from this group as I'm > still > learning about dialogue (hope never to stop really!!). > > I like the photoshop idea and I can see how that could work - I > suppose a > wiki is a similar beastie. I ran one in the BBC, hoping that the > shape it took > would tell us about people's perceived view of what the organisation > "was". > Well, no-one really used it. So perhaps (thinking about it) it did > tell us > something after all! > > Have you ever come across a collaborative drawing site? That's > rather fun - > you get to see lots of cursors dancing around the screen as people > draw > pictures and others add to them. It's chaotic and strangely > compulsive at the same > time: there's one at > > _http://ericdeis.com/content/beautyandchaos/beautyandchaos.php_ > (http://ericdeis.com/content/beautyandchaos/beautyandchaos.php) > > Start off some tic-tac-toe / noughts and crosses (depending where > you live!) > and see people respond... a blast! > > I agree. This to my mind is very dialogical. In classical music > they have > the coda where the performer or in ballet the dancers. perform > their own extra > bit of the piece making it unique and more personal. When, a few > years ago, Pe > ter Krauss introduced the idea of what he called an optical > dialogue I was > excited because I thought that the concept of a dialogue of images > where each > participant could add to, subtract from or photoshop the initial > piece might > end up with some truly original, communal art. But it didn't happen. > People > were more keen to just send it stuff they found on the net with no > comment and > no relationship to any previous posts. Pity. > > don > > > > >