Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] System(atic) Failure(s)

guten abend don

godog putting you on

ice?

leash?

stand-by?

waitingtong list?

sick leave?

duty?

guard?

....

"Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:46:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com>
Subject: dialogers, facilitators, administrators, godogs, mothers, humanimals.....
To: donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>

guten morgen don factor,

so what is (your) mo(u?)ther tell inginging you

?

(to say & not to say)

((to do & not to do))

((( to dobe & not to dobe)))

??

pit

        ,,,.,.,..,....,., &(some) traces ..,..,..,.,.,.,., :

Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:33:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: technicalities
To: "donald factor" <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>


how ever you see
'fit'
i see (a lot) of : pathetictictic thinkgs
going on|off
@ bd

maybe you are just too deep in it
(too deeply, heavily 'invested', as the call it over at the 'street')
to see (through) this

tschuess

and have fun w/ god
and say high

           * * *

"donald factor" <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: technicalities
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:29:18 -0800
To: "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com>

No such animal in the diauninverse.

Will get back to you after the seance

don

          * * *

On Dec 20, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote:
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: I have put it on hold while conferring with a higher being.

godogdon, you are not george w from the oval(office), are you ;-)

i thought you are 'the man'

           * * *

From: "donald factor" <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: technicalities
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:14:45 -0800
To: "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com>

I have put it on hold while conferring with a higher being.
Back soon

don

         * * *

On Dec 20, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote:

no need, don
one-strawl = nuff for me to participate in our big pool of mmmmeaning

up to you...
if you reject humanimal@.net , so be it

          * * *

donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:

Do you intend to keep AEDB on line too? If so, I am not sure I can handle the increased traffic.

don

          * * *

On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote:

guten morgen sir... hey don, bood to see you havent kicket-the-bucket yet, and rather youre still kicking about outhere in the whirld of whirds n all -- ii means: soon nuff we all do'be dust, so might as well dust a'bout a bit moss while we are (one)"piece". quick off-list-message: i will put in a subscription-request at the listserv(er) for another email-address, most likely i will call it humanimal@.net.... because yahoo sucks, and i wouldnt mind consolidating a bit/e.... that said: mittagessen. ok, cheers, & bis bald, tschuess, pit

http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/see%20no%20evil.jpg http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/48/40/23404048.jpg ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: humanature From: kitkat22@rcn.com Date: Sun, December 23, 2007 9:23 To: <k> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's the only place I can be sure of being in touch with you when you "disappear" as you did before. Plus, I can sometimes get a good conversation there, whereas I can't most other places. What did you think of Albert's post to Kari? That story is interesting in the light of what you call human 'nature'. If you include what society has taught and ingrained in us, I guess I can accept the term. But with effort, because anything that's not food, sex, etc isn't 'nature'. I particularly disagree with those who say we all have 'animal' nature i.e. aggressive, predatory et al. and blame their behavior on "animals" as 'natural'. And Bohm agrees with me. On 12/23/07 8:59 AM, ".ß" <....> wrote: > > snip: > > "pit, you atenuts whoops are nuts to bother(with) these iiiiidiotts" > > > > > > > ok, so wherwhen does 'one' bother to > start|end > bothering a'bout groups&dynamics > > humanaturexplorer pit > > > "unreal" (quote:records...)?: > http://www.rainydayrecords.net/images/homelandsecurity.jpg > > "real" (quote:army.mil)? > http://www.smdc.army.mil/SMDCPhoto_Gallery/Eagle/Dec04/homeland%20security-pri ddy0603.jpg > > ps: hey phonirene, how does it > (make you) > feel > to be > on > to be > part of > "the team" > > > > > > > * * * > > > > Subject: Re: humanature > From: "J > Date: Sun, December 23, 2007 8:28 > To: .ß <....> > > > On 23 Dec 2007, at 03:16, .ß wrote: > >> >> >> godog, bones, >> >> what a feast >> >> __ and just in tice for the "fest der liebe {{leibe??}} __ >> >> whoof whoof pet pit >> >> >> >> >> donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote, DEC 22: >> I am informed that pit is still subscribed here under yet another name, possibly more than one. He has written to Irene and quoted something she >> wrote to the list after he was unsubscribed. So, keep your eyes open for >> any hints. Susan has a very keen eye for such things. She was the first to >> spot that AEB was pit. >> >> don >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 22, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Don Lay wrote: >> >> Will-i-am: >> Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by the bohm_dialogue list server. He has been unsubscribed as >> a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his own server as humanimal@... I suggest you update your spam filter. -- >> admin >> >> Don L: >> Under the circumstances, I believe it is not inappropriate to pass on >> the following which I thought was sent to the Bohm list but was >> actually >> directed to one of Peter's addresses: >> >> [was something about Failure] >> >> If dialogue, from the Greek dia logos indicates reason, is it >> reasonable >> to expect a dialogue to be the use of reason and to eliminate the ignoring >> of or distortion of reason and meaning? >> >> It seems entirely reasonable, rational, and perhaps more to the point -- >> meaningful -- to not allow the lack of, or distortion of reason and meaning, to occur in place of dialogue. >> >> Some questions occur: >> >> May meaningful communication occur without reason, ratio, meaning? Does communication occur absent reason, ratio, and meaning? >> >> When reason, ration, meaning is distorted or absent, is communication possible? Is meaningful communication possible? >> >> My view is that the moderator's present actions are reasonable, rational >> and meaningful and are therefore, dialogical. -dl >> >> > > which all begs the qqqq of whow decides what is reason&able.... > > pit, you atenuts whoops are nuts to bother(with) these iiiiidiotts > > ciao jit > > >> >> >> bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org wrote: >> You are now unsubscribed from Bohm_Dialogue >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >

From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 00:18:54 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 00:25:59 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random ......SEXXXX In-Reply-To: <c47283890712211445xa575fcdsc2bca2b8f655f69b@mail.gmail.com> References: <c47283890712211437q11ef2cffnbdfed9d08320cf24@mail.gmail.com> <42476.5176.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <c47283890712211445xa575fcdsc2bca2b8f655f69b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211518q209de459y577b397ac5e00867@mail.gmail.com> OK, I'll give it a shot. First of all, it's VERY personal. Second, in a group like ours, one doesn't know who is and isn't ready to hang his intimate secrets up on the suspension-clothesline. It's VERY necessary to adopt some kind of neutral, objective position and tone if it is to be discussed. There are so many taboos involved that one can hardly breathe without stepping on somebody's sore toe. The chapter in my book on Acquiring Tastes and Loves is most interesting. I'll continue this thread once I've read the whole thing and thought about it some more. I will say, I believe porn is a commercialized enterprise that exploits fantasy and spotlights society's thinking in a way nothing else can. For instance, bondage & s&m. And spanking. other degrading fetishes. To me, that is an extreme expression of very sick cultural practices that exist in the non-sexual arena, and of things that exist in peoples' unconscious and is expressed only where many people won't investigate, so they never know how sick the culture is. One can come to understand why a pro-life enthusiast might embrace that path as a way, consciously or subconsciously, to 'save the children', especially he himself who was hurt. On Dec 21, 2007 5:45 PM, Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: > K: I'll think about that over coconut lemongrass chicken and dry sherry, > and get back to you. > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:43 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > ok, lets talk about why people dont-like-to (talk).... (as you > > say/claim) > > > > why is that? > > > > what might that have to do with (b)dialogue, too? > > > > humanimal > > > > > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > K: Yeah. I don't think people like to talk about their sex lives > > online. And while I might be willing to talk to you privately, and not in > > writing, exhibitionism doesn't thrill me. > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:34 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > dont follow...... wellaugh... not out of spitedisobediencetc... can > > > you flsuhflseh that out some? > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > )( > > > > > > ps: "sex" might be a bood one to..... 'losn' thinkgs up a bit a'round > > > here, no?..... to get that (dialogical) "flow of meaning" back on track/tap, > > > no?? > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > > > K: Oops, Peter. Maybe these topics are why some people use nom de > > > plumes. I suspect we should really approach this from the pov of myths > > > mother and father told us. > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > ok, glad you didnt pull out > > > > and seem to been keen to purr'sue > > > > this one: > > > > > > > > so, tell yoUs, ka > > > > when was the last tice > > > > you "did it" > > > > > > > > lets talk "sex", all you 'dirty old' bones > > > > hey don, how about you > > > > and pat (some, how donot, no DO, ask me why i thinkg you didnt "get > > > > it" or "gave it" in a handful of decades) > > > > and you susan joy? what about you and sex > > > > and mister rob > > > > and, who am i living out here? > > > > oh, yes,william (he liked to pick up "little" girls via > > > > bohm-dialogue... at least thats what i was told.... and thusly janoh=jit > > > > liked to call this club/house here also some sort of dialogical > > > > dating-service ((hi jit, where are you,com on board!))... so will-man, you > > > > still "at it"? > > > > and, who else....? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com >* wrote: > > > > > > > > K: Don't tell me you believe the old myths! Is that why you're so > > > > grumpy sometimes? > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:57 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ka, hand (not just) aufs herz: dont you thinkg your time (tice) > > > > > > > > > > as sex&organ 're > > > > > > > > > > ovr > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com >* wrote: > > > > > > > > > > K: Well, take the sexual instinct. I certainly can control how I > > > > > express it. Eating? Hmmm. A bit more complex, but it can be done. Nobody > > > > > promised us a rose garden. > > > > > How about you? > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:40 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > btw, Ka, would you say {"go so far"} that "instincts" are {take > > > > > > place with'in} your, quote, "i am personally in control"-stuff(ing)?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk >* wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > the Jungian, fairly obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:49:24 -0500 > > > > > > From: irenedarcy@gmail.com > > > > > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > > > > > > > > > > > > I: What definition of 'instinct' are you using. Check out the > > > > > > article on it: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/I27_INV/INSTINCT.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 3:38 PM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > the archetypes that constellate our thinking are instinctual too > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:24:36 -0800 > > > > > > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps to simplify all this. One could say that instinct is > > > > > > involved > > > > > > > in everything we do, think, say or feel. The process that > > > > > > tells us to > > > > > > > breathe and that makes us get sleepy and that makes us jump > > > > > > when > > > > > > > startled are all instinctual. The rest, we might say, is > > > > > > man-made. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007, at 10:00 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is very > > > > > > > > limited. We have then developed thought to deal with more > > > > > > complex > > > > > > > > situations, but even thought is not very subtle. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > feelings, and the instincts, could be put more or less > > > > > > together, > > > > > > > > and the intelligence goes beyond all of them. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be > > > > > > realized by > > > > > > > > our total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by our > > > > > > history > > > > > > > > or by our thought. It is really open and creative. This is a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > crucial point. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct > > > > > > of self > > > > > > > > - preservation. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > Instinct is an inherited reflex. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an > > > > > > initial > > > > > > > > significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive > > > > > > > > response to the experience of the species, and partly on a > > > > > > kind of > > > > > > > > significance that is grounded in past experience. From the > > > > > > deep > > > > > > > > initial intention to act toward an object, the action > > > > > > incorporates > > > > > > > > or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward > > > > > > > > > > > > > > activity. The action changes the perception, and there is > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is > > > > > > > > modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and > > > > > > > > consequences, after which it may remain stable until further > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discrepancies occur. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > As civilization grew, you could no longer count on instinct > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > safety; an electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Irene > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > -- > Irene > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/496ee963/attachment.html From bolinas_forever at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 00:29:43 2007 From: bolinas_forever at yahoo.com (Franis) Date: Sat Dec 22 00:36:43 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less In-Reply-To: <001d01c555bc$3ee2a2e0$0502a8c0@DESKTOP1> References: <001d01c555bc$3ee2a2e0$0502a8c0@DESKTOP1> Message-ID: <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> Hi all! I'm back reading and listening again with regular Internet access. Nice to see you're all still here, well, except for the perennial pit. As far as the appeal to being open as a policy: yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that one before. But what about addressing the bulk of us who have seen pit's trolling, etc. shenanigans before and are not so interested in reading them again, ad infinite? One answer is - I don't mind reading what you guys have to say because it's interesting as I browse here...don't like the format of gmail much, but it's better than nothing... But have to admit I'm a little disappointed that pit (perhaps short for pitiful, but probably short for pitbull) has emerged again in different sheep's clothing. Oh well. <sigh> Melekaliki Maka for those who celebrate that sort of thing... think I'll put my energy into starting an in-person Dialogue group where I happen to be now again. Love, Franis On 5/10/05, Allan <allan.mckenna@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > > A dialogue group must be open. It must be available to the input of all > opinions and individuals from all kinds of cultural and ideational > backgrounds.. Silencing > certain people and allowing others to speak....is that really how you want > > to conduct affairs?? That seems to me to be closed-minded. Certainly, > people can choose what they want to accept or dismiss. Accepting or > rejecting a person altogether, is a different matter. Acceptance fosters > understanding. Isn't that what we are here for? Peter may test the > boundaries, and doesn't growth occur at the edges? > As a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, we should not > censor another's ideas by banning them from the forum. > The only rule there should be is that posts containing abusive content > gets deleted. We can keep this respectful while remaining > challenging, right? > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: > dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/b0558a96/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 01:53:54 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:00:55 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT -.... "need to take notice" In-Reply-To: <675158.50469.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <675158.50469.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <AAC7CB78-CEE5-4C74-AC49-5BF448539502@dc.rr.com> This comment is what, in the trade, is called displacement. It is a skill shared by all neurotics and pysychopaths and most psychotics. You are in good company. But maybe this isn't really the place to displace, since it is well recognized for what it is. And I will ask your normal follow-on question: A: what is it? don On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote: > ka, stupid question, 'who', no: what, no:HOWHAT actually (could) > activate what you call (shophophop a round as): "proprioception" & > "suspension" ... do you have any REAL-life-examples, please, or > (just) this super&facial make&uppy pepp&talk? > > can bohm dialogue, "ever", dobe: REAListictictic? > > cheers > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/c5fb5cd8/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 01:57:12 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:04:13 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01> <c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com> <03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01> <BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl> <3E9D0B23-6B50-42F9-9418-DE9F46921C62@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com> On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, rob mooney wrote: > there is no good or bad art. Just stuff you like and stuff you don't. No, there is art, and you do know it when you see it, or hear it. Even if you hate it. Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that don't mean play acting, which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is. don > > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > As I said, Art Acts. And there are all kinds of art. But there is > no such animal as good art or bad art. There is only art and non-art. > > don > > On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:01 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > "poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process > of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re- > live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's > wise conclusions." > > (Don patterson) > > I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture, > photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee > shirt... > > > From: donlay@knology.net > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500 > > ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to > say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it > is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through > the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to > explicate. > > Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough > to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv? > > Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity > movement while writing code. If there was, he would be unable to > write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate > for the personal identity. That is, personal identity simply has > no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language. > > Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing > improv? -- dl > > > \ > From: Irene Darcy > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > > I: We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now. And to say > more, I'd have to go get my book. > > It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space > line when one moves, I think. > > Why do all the good things happen at once? I'm working on Bach > Goldberg. My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop > soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing > for it. I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with > Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on > clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin. > > On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: > I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. > > What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time > and space? > > Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo? > Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time > and space that is prior to homo-sappo? -- dl > > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Irene Darcy > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > > I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And > imagination has its place when it's not out of balance. > > On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < > lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote: > To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the > problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; > explicate is implicate is explicate?) > > > > On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote: > > the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob > > Maybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think > of the identity of things including us. > > I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all > this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, > with the language or knowing system of imagination. > > It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or > non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply > by acting and pretending it is not there. > > Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand > the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl > > > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could > there be no space? > > the old old thought occurs -- no us? > > > > From: donlay@knology.net > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500 > > if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... > um... breath > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could > there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful > concept and use while being aware that it is limited. > > Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl > > > > > > > > > -- > Irene > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > -- > Irene > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Everything in one place. All new Windows Live! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search > Charades! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/d4cce3a4/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 01:59:01 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:06:02 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] will i am wants to be "done" (with you) In-Reply-To: <c47283890712211121l4e766c6fk464eb26fcc7642e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <B6816300-8EFD-48F2-B8E2-F2325711C39A@dc.rr.com> <383124.41308.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <c47283890712211121l4e766c6fk464eb26fcc7642e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDA7D0-88F6-492C-9949-061B796BE76D@dc.rr.com> I think that if he wasn't creative he would be long gone. Creativity in and of itself is not necessarily a good thing. don On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:21 AM, Irene Darcy wrote: > K: Peter, if they do unsubscribe you, I know you will subscribe > again. But think. You'll just have to keep silent or change your > tone anyway or you'll get unsubbed all over again. > > Creative people can find more than one way to make their points. > And I know you're creative. > > On Dec 21, 2007 2:02 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > a _ done with what? > > b _ and how? by suppression? repression? what a feast: hey william, > by any chance, ahve you read some bohm lately.... ever? what a > joke. choke. jokker... > > ~ > > donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > ...He [will i am] would like to just unsubscribe you and be done > with it. > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > -- > Irene > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/6def41f6/attachment.html From a.debakey at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 01:59:06 2007 From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:06:06 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less In-Reply-To: <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63242.46596.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Franis <bolinas_forever@yahoo.com> wrote: I'm back reading again with regular http://tinyurl.com/23y4f4 access.... --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/589d7290/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:01:32 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:08:33 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W14B45973CEEB90A41DDA9EDC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th> <003101c840b4$1a0909b0$b5c16018@DL01> <BAY123-W316D168A86355AA8647C79DC620@phx.gbl> <00e501c840df$bb92bda0$b5c16018@DL01> <BAY123-W3205646DF39FCB075F9CE5DC620@phx.gbl> <1F7DA20A-E59A-4220-978F-3AA284BBD26C@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W17D702155BD553E462636EDC620@phx.gbl> <8E62992E-CB4A-4FD0-B267-A050FBAE608A@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W3142D1739711E2E101EA09DC5C0@phx.gbl> <9CE6CCB0-CC80-480A-983E-472D2D8F98D1@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W14B45973CEEB90A41DDA9EDC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C7179A5F-C22A-423A-A0A1-CB4A18B58C1D@dc.rr.com> Probably because I don't know either. And from scrolling down through this thread it seems that Don Lay started it anyway. don On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:23 AM, rob mooney wrote: > I have heard of my space and face book. I just don't know what you > are talking about. > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:56:21 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > What? You don't know My Space? Try Googling it. There is also Face > Book but My Space is even closer to home. > > don > > On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:08 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > and where would that be Don? over the rainbow? through the looking > glass? in a dialogue? > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:00:22 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > OR My Space. > > don > > On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:04 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > why would I single you out Don? > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:14 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > Should be me, no? > X > On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:37 AM, rob mooney wrote: > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could > there be no space? > > the old old thought occurs -- no us? > > > > From: donlay@knology.net > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500 > > if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... > um... breath > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could > there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful > concept and use while being aware that it is limited. > > Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl > > > > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rob mooney > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM > Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > > if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... > um... breath > > From: donlay@knology.net > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500 > > "is there space, time causality in the implicate order", > > If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate > order' I > think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be > explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are > implicated). -- Jeff > > Hi Jeff. > > Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed > by "in"? > > If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to > address the meaning of the question? -- dl > > > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Webb > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order > > Hi, > > I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time > causality in > the implicate order. > > If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate > order' I > think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be > explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are > implicated). So > the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time > causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of > this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the > implicate order. > > I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details. > > Jeff > > > > In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the > > 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, > > matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a > typo for > > ?there?.) > > > > In the implicate order there is no space, time, > causality, > > matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? > > > > Regina > > > > > > ?? > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star! > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Everything in one place? All new Windows Live! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search > Charades! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search > Charades! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Messenger on the move? Text MSN to 63463 now! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/c75d2d6b/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:03:39 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:10:40 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W393ABD72245773D59E828BDC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th><007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01><009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01><00ae01c840cb$c07ac830$b5c16018@DL01> <BAY123-W879FB36B103BA98E4068CDC620@phx.gbl> <010801c840e1$de342e00$b5c16018@DL01> <BAY123-W350E74A4BF40EED8D77188DC620@phx.gbl> <0B6839C7-B24F-4F22-A7A3-2354F8D15B6B@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W378C54AF712FEB739B63DEDC620@phx.gbl> <1DF60B92-466C-4F19-9BB7-3A8583D658AB@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W211A0D57827E6DA9A95FEBDC5C0@phx.gbl> <78D0172D-690E-490C-9348-31D02D2D4545@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W393ABD72245773D59E828BDC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <5716BA90-950D-4999-9B37-5495E748E16B@dc.rr.com> True the two do go together. And like a lot of stuff, you can't have one without the other. don On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:26 AM, rob mooney wrote: > knowledge and caring seem close. you can't know much until you care > or care much until you know. > > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:01:17 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > I don't think it is knowledge so much as caring. > That is where the dance is > And there is only the dance. > > don > On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:15 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > i don't think it necessarily has to spoil it. with poetry anyway > Don Patterson or Ruth Padel will go into the fricatives and the > consonal rhymes and assonance and all the rest and the general > affect (usually for me) is - oh, I see. So the understanding is > furthered. I expect a grasp of geology probably adds to the > appreciation of a landscape? Dunno - what do you think? > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:15:47 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > But some part of you does. The question is: does looking for that > part spoil it all? > > don > > On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:42 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > Don Patterson the English poet says that you can think of poems as > something like a natural object, produced by us (or midwifed or > something) out of our naturalness. I'm not sure you have to > understand a hill or a spider or a waterfall to love it > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:31:21 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > I don't understand many of my favorite poems. I don't understand a > lot of my favorite art. > But some part of me must. The conscious part, the ego, is not the > whole thing. There is > more, always morel. > > don > > On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:59 AM, rob mooney wrote: > > dl: Surely a poem need not be understood in order to have meaning, > be meaningful? dl > > I think this is important. not just poems. many meaningful things. > > > She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Messenger on the move. Text MSN to 63463 now! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Messenger on the move. Text MSN to 63463 now! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/44caeeca/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 02:04:35 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:11:34 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less In-Reply-To: <63242.46596.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> <63242.46596.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211704t773690anb5b632a57325745f@mail.gmail.com> K: Franis, why in god's name would you post that? On Dec 21, 2007 7:59 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > *Franis <bolinas_forever@yahoo.com>* wrote: > I'm back reading again with regular *http://tinyurl.com/23y4f4* access.... > > > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/c34d4648/attachment.html From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sat Dec 22 02:05:35 2007 From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:12:38 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less In-Reply-To: <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C391B0EF.FCEE%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> Hi Franis, Good to hear your voice again. I?ve been too busy to get into the fray lately, and every time I think about it, I suspend and wonder if it?s worth the time and effort. Still suspending there. I still love this group. So long as I have a delete key. Nothing personal, Peter. I think you offered us a poem when you were still Alan, and I really enjoyed that. And you have made some interesting points. But more and more posts take too much to decipher, or sound like ranting. Lynne On 12/21/07 4:29 PM, "Franis" <bolinas_forever@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi all! > I'm back reading and listening again with regular Internet access. Nice to see > you're all still here, well, except for the perennial pit. > As far as the appeal to being open as a policy: yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard > that one before. > But what about addressing the bulk of us who have seen pit's trolling, etc. > shenanigans before and are not so interested in reading them again, ad > infinite? > One answer is - I don't mind reading what you guys have to say because it's > interesting as I browse here...don't like the format of gmail much, but it's > better than nothing... But have to admit I'm a little disappointed that pit > (perhaps short for pitiful, but probably short for pitbull) has emerged again > in different sheep's clothing. Oh well. <sigh> > Melekaliki Maka for those who celebrate that sort of thing... think I'll put > my energy into starting an in-person Dialogue group where I happen to be now > again. > Love, > Franis > > On 5/10/05, Allan <allan.mckenna@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> A dialogue group must be open. It must be available to the input of all >> opinions and individuals from all kinds of cultural and ideational >> backgrounds.. Silencing >> certain people and allowing others to speak....is that really how you want >> to conduct affairs?? That seems to me to be closed-minded. Certainly, >> people can choose what they want to accept or dismiss. Accepting or >> rejecting a person altogether, is a different matter. Acceptance fosters >> understanding. Isn't that what we are here for? Peter may test the >> boundaries, and doesn't growth occur at the edges? >> As a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, we should not censor >> another's ideas by banning them from the forum. >> The only rule there should be is that posts containing abusive content gets >> deleted. We can keep this respectful while remaining >> challenging, right? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/a43e3bc7/attachment.html From a.debakey at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 02:11:51 2007 From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:18:50 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Life, Pain, Control, Options, Opting.... In-Reply-To: <c47283890712211202w70e86e68g4a9b43a7e6132572@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <329926.37716.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ka, by "opting out" i did and do not mean you turning your-self in to a sausage by jump your selves in front of an in com in AAAA-train etc this is where ii am eyeing to go with this one: you, more or less maintainclaim that: we, all, on an 'individualevel' are running our lifes are "in charge.... in control" that does not just go against what bohm says, btw, but also against 'common sense' thusly (to get back on to some real life example): if you feel pain about someTHINKG, like you are upset what a neighbor say to you etc why not just (self)control you OUT of this pain why not just free-will you off that "track" ...... if thinkgs are so.... easy & home-makey )( Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: Why not just: "opt out"....choose NOT to have, to BE IN PAIN.. K: Peter, shall we dialogue that? It sounds very important to me. I don't opt out because I'm having too much fun in this explicate order. I don't have everything I want, but I have more than what i need. And i can see the beauty as well as the pathos of life. I'm really not in pain. But I don't know about others. And I truly worry about you. Talk to us about pain. Your pain. Nobody will ridicule you. Susan has a website about that, I believe, that i didn't read. Did you? Between you and me, I wonder if the obesity crisis started with the appearance of AIDS. People are afraid and have turned to substitutes and sublimations. Doidge has a lot to say about pornography. On Dec 21, 2007 2:54 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: Ohhhh, do we?? Like kathiren has all way all that power over here when she 'goes through' another pint of i-i-i-i-i-i-cedream? If you have all that power, so munch power, why are you so fat, Ka? Why are you in so much pain? Why not just: "opt out"....choose NOT to have, to BE IN PAIN..... oh, its almost painful to take a break now... this is sooooo much fun... but other thinkgs to play with&in this humanimal here, too.... so, later bones, ...later, as all ways (hi will i am, you little 1/2german control-freak-out) ;--) ciao Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: And on power, we only have power over ourselves. But when we change, we affect all the other orders. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -- Irene info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/df723641/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:15:13 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:22:13 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] System(a tictictic)&Failure? In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W40BA65C03FB293E2197815DC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <6696F445-08DA-43FD-8295-FC478C5719EF@dc.rr.com> <159206.26581.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <BAY123-W40BA65C03FB293E2197815DC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <D6739FBE-9328-40EC-9777-3855426576BD@dc.rr.com> However, what would peter say? If he considered himself one of those dialogue-big-wigs? don On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:17 PM, rob mooney wrote: > yes. quite right. you are all right. > > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 05:34:57 -0800 > From: a.debakey@yahoo.com > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] System(a tictictic)&Failure? > > > Mind-blowing(?): > > Let's take a look: > > There is a group, called "Bohm_Dialogue". > > Online they (pretend to) look at David Bohm's proposals etc > regarding dialogue, communication, incoherence, blocks, reflexes... > > One Day > > One Member > > Of the group pop us his head/hand and says: I don't like THIS > dialogue. Lets open another (group). (And thus, utterly, missing > the point of what Bohm's work 's about). > > So what does the group to in response? > > More'o'less: Zip. Nada. Nix. > > All those dialogue-big-wigs who usually fill the (digital) pages > with their musings (for years and years): zip. > > Big bunkerin-down is "angesagt". > > Bigsilence (oh, ah, does ii hear some xpertzzz here szszszay: > suspension ) > > Whas a bunch of BS, or, as peter would say (and does): > > Pullpushit! > > FanFunTasTicTicTic > > > HUmanimalian > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search > Charades! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/3d36e987/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:16:36 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:23:36 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W420F3A26AA8C0069AA47EDDC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <20071221.130056.3184.195.ae.dropper@juno.com> <817130EB-F60F-48DA-A2DE-E57B029875F3@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W420F3A26AA8C0069AA47EDDC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <04B40E12-F962-4618-9CFC-02608D4227EF@dc.rr.com> On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:38 PM, rob mooney wrote: > the archetypes that constellate our thinking are instinctual too Maybe, maybe not. What keeps it interesting is that nobody knows for sure. don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/abc4d493/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:17:56 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:24:55 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT -.... "need to take notice" In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W160EFAEEE9339BCAED6604DC5E0@phx.gbl> References: <c47283890712211036j5463f043q9f38100d26a87203@mail.gmail.com> <675158.50469.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <BAY123-W160EFAEEE9339BCAED6604DC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <3CF3E124-AEDD-4C00-830C-B52F5229C005@dc.rr.com> I would, but I have sixty six posts to read - hope springs eternal. Then I shall don On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:50 PM, rob mooney wrote: > for fuck sake Don just give him what he's begging you for. > > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:16:00 -0800 > From: a.debakey@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT -.... "need to take notice" > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > ka, stupid question, 'who', no: what, no:HOWHAT actually (could) > activate what you call (shophophop a round as): "proprioception" & > "suspension" ... do you have any REAL-life-examples, please, or > (just) this super&facial make&uppy pepp&talk? > > can bohm dialogue, "ever", dobe: REAListictictic? > > cheers > > )( > > > > Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: > K: Sounds right to me. I think proprioception and suspension need > to take notice of what people believe .... > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star! > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/eb6b50b0/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 02:20:18 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:27:18 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Life, Pain, Control, Options, Opting.... In-Reply-To: <329926.37716.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <c47283890712211202w70e86e68g4a9b43a7e6132572@mail.gmail.com> <329926.37716.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211720t40e6c52ge5446e9bd9d75287@mail.gmail.com> you are upset what a neighbor say to you etc why not just (self)control you OUT of this pain why not just free-will you off that "track" ...... if thinkgs are so.... easy & home-makey K: I never said it didn't take hard work. And intent. And desire. And motivation. But I have just finished reading an explanation of the neurobiology of a lot of stuff I'll post later tonight or tomorrow. A whole section on the neurobiology of change. It blew my mind. Meanwhile, a few days back Susan posted that she had done some work on the idea of pain and posted it on her website. I'd like to check it out, but can't find it. I just came back to try to find it. On Dec 21, 2007 8:11 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > ka, by "opting out" i did and do not mean you turning your-self in > to a sausage by jump your selves in front of an in com in AAAA-train > Whewwwwwwwwwwww. Mindless use of language creates wrong impressions. Relieved to hear the clarification. > > etc > > this is where ii am eyeing to go with this one: > you, more or less maintainclaim that: > we, all, on an 'individualevel' are running our lifes > are "in charge.... in control" > that does not just go against what bohm says, btw, > but also against 'common sense' > > thusly > > (to get back on to some real life example): > if you feel pain about someTHINKG, like > you are upset what a neighbor say to you etc > why not just (self)control you OUT of this pain > why not just free-will you off that "track" > ...... if thinkgs are so.... easy & home-makey > > )( > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > Why not just: "opt out"....choose NOT to have, to BE IN PAIN.. > > K: Peter, shall we dialogue that? It sounds very important to me. I > don't opt out because I'm having too much fun in this explicate order. I > don't have everything I want, but I have more than what i need. And i can > see the beauty as well as the pathos of life. I'm really not in pain. But > I don't know about others. And I truly worry about you. Talk to us about > pain. Your pain. Nobody will ridicule you. Susan has a website about > that, I believe, that i didn't read. Did you? > > Between you and me, I wonder if the obesity crisis started with the > appearance of AIDS. People are afraid and have turned to substitutes and > sublimations. Doidge has a lot to say about pornography. > > On Dec 21, 2007 2:54 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Ohhhh, do we?? Like kathiren has all way all that power over here when > > she 'goes through' another pint of i-i-i-i-i-i-cedream? If you have all that > > power, so munch power, why are you so fat, Ka? Why are you in so much pain? > > Why not just: "opt out"....choose NOT to have, to BE IN PAIN..... oh, its > > almost painful to take a break now... this is sooooo much fun... but other > > thinkgs to play with&in this humanimal here, too.... so, later bones, > > ...later, as all ways (hi will i am, you little 1/2german control-freak-out) > > > > > > ;--) > > > > ciao > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> *wrote: > > > > > > > > And on power, we only have power over ourselves. But when we change, we > > affect all the other orders. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+> > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > -- > Irene > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/1382b838/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 02:21:55 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:28:55 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes In-Reply-To: <04B40E12-F962-4618-9CFC-02608D4227EF@dc.rr.com> References: <20071221.130056.3184.195.ae.dropper@juno.com> <817130EB-F60F-48DA-A2DE-E57B029875F3@dc.rr.com> <BAY123-W420F3A26AA8C0069AA47EDDC5E0@phx.gbl> <04B40E12-F962-4618-9CFC-02608D4227EF@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211721s17100210u9d2182d489a916b0@mail.gmail.com> IK: Thank you, Don. That's what I was getting at, but Rob didn't follow up. On Dec 21, 2007 8:16 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > > On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:38 PM, rob mooney wrote: > > the archetypes that constellate our thinking are instinctual too > > > Maybe, maybe not. > > What keeps it interesting is that nobody knows for sure. > > don > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/539bdcc1/attachment.html From a.debakey at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 02:24:48 2007 From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:31:48 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random ......SEXXXX In-Reply-To: <c47283890712211518q209de459y577b397ac5e00867@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <528108.91574.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> do we need to go further than: "VERY personal" what you mean?? whats personal here? you are hiding behind cliches you can talk about how you make music but you cannot talk about how you make 'love'? can we look at that "personalnessmess" ii cannot see it seriously we could talk about cooking and eating but not about how you put other stuff in you? blows my mind am ii so fucking unconditioned or are you so fucking conditioned? did you ever have analsex? did you ever have tiramisu? ..... )( Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: OK, I'll give it a shot. First of all, it's VERY personal. Second, in a group like ours, one doesn't know who is and isn't ready to hang his intimate secrets up on the suspension-clothesline. It's VERY necessary to adopt some kind of neutral, objective position and tone if it is to be discussed. There are so many taboos involved that one can hardly breathe without stepping on somebody's sore toe. The chapter in my book on Acquiring Tastes and Loves is most interesting. I'll continue this thread once I've read the whole thing and thought about it some more. I will say, I believe porn is a commercialized enterprise that exploits fantasy and spotlights society's thinking in a way nothing else can. For instance, bondage & s&m. And spanking. other degrading fetishes. To me, that is an extreme expression of very sick cultural practices that exist in the non-sexual arena, and of things that exist in peoples' unconscious and is expressed only where many people won't investigate, so they never know how sick the culture is. One can come to understand why a pro-life enthusiast might embrace that path as a way, consciously or subconsciously, to 'save the children', especially he himself who was hurt. On Dec 21, 2007 5:45 PM, Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: K: I'll think about that over coconut lemongrass chicken and dry sherry, and get back to you. On Dec 21, 2007 5:43 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: ok, lets talk about why people dont-like-to (talk).... (as you say/claim) why is that? what might that have to do with (b)dialogue, too? humanimal Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: K: Yeah. I don't think people like to talk about their sex lives online. And while I might be willing to talk to you privately, and not in writing, exhibitionism doesn't thrill me. On Dec 21, 2007 5:34 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: dont follow...... wellaugh... not out of spitedisobediencetc... can you flsuhflseh that out some? cheers )( ps: "sex" might be a bood one to..... 'losn' thinkgs up a bit a'round here, no?..... to get that (dialogical) "flow of meaning" back on track/tap, no?? Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: K: Oops, Peter. Maybe these topics are why some people use nom de plumes. I suspect we should really approach this from the pov of myths mother and father told us. On Dec 21, 2007 5:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: ok, glad you didnt pull out and seem to been keen to purr'sue this one: so, tell yoUs, ka when was the last tice you "did it" lets talk "sex", all you 'dirty old' bones hey don, how about you and pat (some, how donot, no DO, ask me why i thinkg you didnt "get it" or "gave it" in a handful of decades) and you susan joy? what about you and sex and mister rob and, who am i living out here? oh, yes,william (he liked to pick up "little" girls via bohm-dialogue... at least thats what i was told.... and thusly janoh=jit liked to call this club/house here also some sort of dialogical dating-service ((hi jit, where are you,com on board!))... so will-man, you still "at it"? and, who else....? Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com > wrote: K: Don't tell me you believe the old myths! Is that why you're so grumpy sometimes? On Dec 21, 2007 4:57 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: Ka, hand (not just) aufs herz: dont you thinkg your time (tice) as sex&organ 're ovr ? Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com > wrote: K: Well, take the sexual instinct. I certainly can control how I express it. Eating? Hmmm. A bit more complex, but it can be done. Nobody promised us a rose garden. How about you? On Dec 21, 2007 4:40 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: btw, Ka, would you say {"go so far"} that "instincts" are {take place with'in} your, quote, "i am personally in control"-stuff(ing)?? rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk > wrote: the Jungian, fairly obviously. --------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:49:24 -0500 From: irenedarcy@gmail.com To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes I: What definition of 'instinct' are you using. Check out the article on it: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/I27_INV/INSTINCT.html On Dec 21, 2007 3:38 PM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk > wrote: the archetypes that constellate our thinking are instinctual too > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:24:36 -0800 > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > Perhaps to simplify all this. One could say that instinct is involved > in everything we do, think, say or feel. The process that tells us to > breathe and that makes us get sleepy and that makes us jump when > startled are all instinctual. The rest, we might say, is man-made. > > don > > On Dec 21, 2007, at 10:00 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote: > > > Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is very > > limited. We have then developed thought to deal with more complex > > situations, but even thought is not very subtle. > > ~ > > The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory based > > feelings, and the instincts, could be put more or less together, > > and the intelligence goes beyond all of them. > > ~ > > There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be realized by > > our total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by our history > > or by our thought. It is really open and creative. This is a > > crucial point. > > ~ > > Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct of self > > - preservation. > > ~ > > Instinct is an inherited reflex. > > ~ > > The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial > > significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive > > response to the experience of the species, and partly on a kind of > > significance that is grounded in past experience. From the deep > > initial intention to act toward an object, the action incorporates > > or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward > > activity. The action changes the perception, and there is another > > action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the > > intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is > > modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and > > consequences, after which it may remain stable until further > > discrepancies occur. > > ~ > > As civilization grew, you could no longer count on instinct for > > safety; an electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. > > ~ > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -- Irene info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -- Irene -- Irene info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/6d6d7317/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:25:11 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:32:11 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] com&passio In-Reply-To: <c47283890712211332v7290c238x7f8e47c6ad7fc33f@mail.gmail.com> References: <979627.36051.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <57061.57555.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <c47283890712211332v7290c238x7f8e47c6ad7fc33f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <D8867F68-E73C-4912-98F3-058C30308D76@dc.rr.com> Totnes? I used to live there. We did some interesting dialogue work at Dartington - which see. Are you going to meet up with Janoh? Say hello for me. Also ask her to introduce you to Detta, one of the greats don On Dec 21, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Irene Darcy wrote: > K: Just might do that. Did I mention I may be in Dresden in June, > hop on a train to Totnes, then why not back on a train to Munich. > One of our Dalcroze people is buried in Perlmutter Forest. He was > a member of the German Resistance to Hitler. The SS caught and > executed him the last day of the war. And beheaded his nephew. > > shit, ka, if you want to see him 'live' > just hopp over the ocean > i am positive he is, at least a bit, dying to meat you > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > <tag> > >>passion , >>compassion, >>william > </tag> > > > > > > > > this one is a "keeper": > > I didn't mean coping with the sense of detachment. I meant how to > cope with > the tendency to suspend more and more; what you call "layered" > suspension > (resulting in a sense of "detachment" for lack of a better word). > You see, > at some point it starts getting a bit anti-social. When you are always > suspending, people are not getting their expected responses > anymore. Usually > the reason for someone to say something or do something is to get a > response > This is also the case when someone utters an insult, or attempt to > hurt > you: they usually do this because they are disappointed or angry; > and they > want a reaction that shows they have touched you. Now, if you are > always in > suspense mode then the attempted hurt doesn't work, because there > is no > reaction on your side. At first glance this is perhaps not a bad thing > because it usually prevents the situation from escalating. > However, there > is another aspect to this, which is that the attempted hurt could be > regarded as a form of communication; they are trying to say > something. If > you don't respond, don't react (as a result of suspension) then you > are > effectively refusing to communicate on this level. You may be > willing to > communicate on a different level but that channel is not open both > ways. The > point is, you are denying communication on the channel on which it is > invited. > > So, what do you say to this? Because i am assuming it is not > actually your > intention to deny communication. You are probably in compassion > mode, which > however is not the channel open to whoever wants to touch you. Have > you > reached a point where you would consider suspending suspension, out of > compassion, and give the person the feeling of having touched you? > Would you > like to comment before i go further? You realize, of course, where > this is > leading up to. > > herr will-i-am, annos demzbros eightos twentyzerozerosevenos > > > "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > ka, you 'see' (not): > ii is really not into william > ii means, against coomon dobelief here > that ii 'hates' or dislikes or whatever him: > s'he is just a(nother)voice in this > primordial soup of dialogue > --- she 's a bit of a control'freak'out, tho ;--) > > but hey, whatever turns his crank & > pushis but tons > > he is, after all, a creature of (2nd generation) > pass i on > > > > wait, will clip & plug that in here > > > &&&, of course that didoes answer your re:quest not > shit, ka, if you want to see him 'live' > just hopp over the ocean > i am positive he is, at least a bit, dying to meat you > > > > > > Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: > I: Hi Pit! > > btw - speaking of Googling people, I Googled William, but I can't > find anything on OUR William. There are plenty of William van den > Heuvels out there. I'd love to hear how William met Bohm, how all > this ties in with his life work, his interests, etc. I'd love to > have a fuller picture of him, actually all of us, as live people. > > On Dec 21, 2007 3:58 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > will i am is so full of ..it ... > no, wait,.... so empti ;-) > > )( > > > w@net: > No, I have never studied anything. I suppose, that saves me .... > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > -- > Irene > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > -- > Irene > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/d74fcce1/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:28:06 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:35:07 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less In-Reply-To: <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> References: <001d01c555bc$3ee2a2e0$0502a8c0@DESKTOP1> <f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <A4730449-5F2A-4E31-A7DC-4E0F45281830@dc.rr.com> Hi welcome back, where are you? don \ On Dec 21, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Franis wrote: > Hi all! > I'm back reading and listening again with regular Internet access. > Nice to see you're all still here, well, except for the perennial pit. > As far as the appeal to being open as a policy: yeah, yeah, yeah. > I've heard that one before. > But what about addressing the bulk of us who have seen pit's > trolling, etc. shenanigans before and are not so interested in > reading them again, ad infinite? > One answer is - I don't mind reading what you guys have to say > because it's interesting as I browse here...don't like the format > of gmail much, but it's better than nothing... But have to admit > I'm a little disappointed that pit (perhaps short for pitiful, but > probably short for pitbull) has emerged again in different sheep's > clothing. Oh well. <sigh> > Melekaliki Maka for those who celebrate that sort of thing... think > I'll put my energy into starting an in-person Dialogue group where > I happen to be now again. > Love, > Franis > > On 5/10/05, Allan <allan.mckenna@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > A dialogue group must be open. It must be available to the input > of all opinions and individuals from all kinds of cultural and > ideational backgrounds.. Silencing > certain people and allowing others to speak....is that really how > you want > to conduct affairs?? That seems to me to be closed-minded. > Certainly, people can choose what they want to accept or dismiss. > Accepting or rejecting a person altogether, is a different matter. > Acceptance fosters understanding. Isn't that what we are here > for? Peter may test the boundaries, and doesn't growth occur at > the edges? > As a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, we should > not censor another's ideas by banning them from the forum. > The only rule there should be is that posts containing abusive > content gets deleted. We can keep this respectful while remaining > challenging, right? > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: > dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/b547b7db/attachment.html From a.debakey at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 02:28:17 2007 From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:35:16 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT -.... "need to take notice" In-Reply-To: <AAC7CB78-CEE5-4C74-AC49-5BF448539502@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <906338.46584.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> "it"? ... and why not ask, wenn-schon-denn-schon: "why"(is it) "how" (is it) "where" (is it)... what is it "it", don? " " " donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: This comment is what, in the trade, is called displacement. It is a skill shared by all neurotics and pysychopaths and most psychotics. You are in good company. But maybe this isn't really the place to displace, since it is well recognized for what it is. And I will ask your normal follow-on question: A: what is it? don On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote: ka, stupid question, 'who', no: what, no:HOWHAT actually (could) activate what you call (shophophop a round as): "proprioception" & "suspension" ... do you have any REAL-life-examples, please, or (just) this super&facial make&uppy pepp&talk? can bohm dialogue, "ever", dobe: REAListictictic? cheers info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/08564344/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 02:30:11 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:37:11 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT -.... "need to take notice" In-Reply-To: <906338.46584.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <906338.46584.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <B96E789E-E2D3-4899-9AF3-E041D4B52AA2@dc.rr.com> I think, the time has come by! On Dec 21, 2007, at 5:28 PM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote: > "it"? > > ... and why not ask, wenn-schon-denn-schon: > "why"(is it) > "how" (is it) > "where" (is it)... > > what is it "it", don? > " > " > " > > > > donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > This comment is what, in the trade, is called displacement. It is a > skill shared by all neurotics and pysychopaths and most psychotics. > You are in good company. But maybe this isn't really the place to > displace, since it is well recognized for what it is. > > And I will ask your normal follow-on question: > > A: what is it? > > don > On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote: > >> ka, stupid question, 'who', no: what, no:HOWHAT actually (could) >> activate what you call (shophophop a round as): "proprioception" >> & "suspension" ... do you have any REAL-life-examples, please, or >> (just) this super&facial make&uppy pepp&talk? >> >> can bohm dialogue, "ever", dobe: REAListictictic? >> >> cheers >> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/9f7534ec/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 02:37:52 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:44:53 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random ......SEXXXX In-Reply-To: <528108.91574.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <c47283890712211518q209de459y577b397ac5e00867@mail.gmail.com> <528108.91574.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211737l45a9bf15lf9154e2f5c72f82a@mail.gmail.com> K: Tell you what. You start. On second thought, don't. Yes, I think you are sooo unconditioned, as you put it, in areas where conditioning is positive, that you don't know appropriateness when it stares you in the face. Start with the idea of 'consenting adults'. Well, we are all adults here, but HAVEN'T consented to what you propose. On Dec 21, 2007 8:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > do we need to go further than: > "VERY personal" > what you mean?? > whats personal here? > you are hiding behind cliches > > you can talk about how you make music > but > you cannot talk about how you make 'love'? > > can we look at that "personalnessmess" > ii cannot see it > seriously > > we could talk about cooking and eating > but not about how you put other stuff in you? > > blows my mind > am ii so fucking *unconditioned* > or > are you so fucking *conditioned*? > > did you ever have analsex? > did you ever have tiramisu? > ..... > > )( > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > OK, I'll give it a shot. First of all, it's VERY personal. Second, in a > group like ours, one doesn't know who is and isn't ready to hang his > intimate secrets up on the suspension-clothesline. It's VERY necessary to > adopt some kind of neutral, objective position and tone if it is to be > discussed. There are so many taboos involved that one can hardly breathe > without stepping on somebody's sore toe. The chapter in my book on > Acquiring Tastes and Loves is most interesting. I'll continue this thread > once I've read the whole thing and thought about it some more. I will say, > I believe porn is a commercialized enterprise that exploits fantasy and > spotlights society's thinking in a way nothing else can. For instance, > bondage & s&m. And spanking. other degrading fetishes. To me, that is an > extreme expression of very sick cultural practices that exist in the > non-sexual arena, and of things that exist in peoples' unconscious and is > expressed only where many people won't investigate, so they never know how > sick the culture is. One can come to understand why a pro-life enthusiast > might embrace that path as a way, consciously or subconsciously, to 'save > the children', especially he himself who was hurt. > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:45 PM, Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: > > > K: I'll think about that over coconut lemongrass chicken and dry > > sherry, and get back to you. > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:43 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > ok, lets talk about why people dont-like-to (talk).... (as you > > > say/claim) > > > > > > why is that? > > > > > > what might that have to do with (b)dialogue, too? > > > > > > humanimal > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > > > K: Yeah. I don't think people like to talk about their sex lives > > > online. And while I might be willing to talk to you privately, and not in > > > writing, exhibitionism doesn't thrill me. > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:34 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > dont follow...... wellaugh... not out of spitedisobediencetc... can > > > > you flsuhflseh that out some? > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > > > )( > > > > > > > > ps: "sex" might be a bood one to..... 'losn' thinkgs up a bit > > > > a'round here, no?..... to get that (dialogical) "flow of meaning" back on > > > > track/tap, no?? > > > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > > > > > K: Oops, Peter. Maybe these topics are why some people use nom de > > > > plumes. I suspect we should really approach this from the pov of myths > > > > mother and father told us. > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 5:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ok, glad you didnt pull out > > > > > and seem to been keen to purr'sue > > > > > this one: > > > > > > > > > > so, tell yoUs, ka > > > > > when was the last tice > > > > > you "did it" > > > > > > > > > > lets talk "sex", all you 'dirty old' bones > > > > > hey don, how about you > > > > > and pat (some, how donot, no DO, ask me why i thinkg you didnt > > > > > "get it" or "gave it" in a handful of decades) > > > > > and you susan joy? what about you and sex > > > > > and mister rob > > > > > and, who am i living out here? > > > > > oh, yes,william (he liked to pick up "little" girls via > > > > > bohm-dialogue... at least thats what i was told.... and thusly janoh=jit > > > > > liked to call this club/house here also some sort of dialogical > > > > > dating-service ((hi jit, where are you,com on board!))... so will-man, you > > > > > still "at it"? > > > > > and, who else....? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com >* wrote: > > > > > > > > > > K: Don't tell me you believe the old myths! Is that why you're > > > > > so grumpy sometimes? > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:57 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ka, hand (not just) aufs herz: dont you thinkg your time (tice) > > > > > > > > > > > > as sex&organ 're > > > > > > > > > > > > ovr > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com >* wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > K: Well, take the sexual instinct. I certainly can control how > > > > > > I express it. Eating? Hmmm. A bit more complex, but it can be done. > > > > > > Nobody promised us a rose garden. > > > > > > How about you? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:40 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > btw, Ka, would you say {"go so far"} that "instincts" are > > > > > > > {take place with'in} your, quote, "i am personally in control"-stuff(ing)?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk >* wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Jungian, fairly obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:49:24 -0500 > > > > > > > From: irenedarcy@gmail.com > > > > > > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I: What definition of 'instinct' are you using. Check out > > > > > > > the article on it: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/I27_INV/INSTINCT.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 3:38 PM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the archetypes that constellate our thinking are instinctual > > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:24:36 -0800 > > > > > > > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps to simplify all this. One could say that instinct is > > > > > > > involved > > > > > > > > in everything we do, think, say or feel. The process that > > > > > > > tells us to > > > > > > > > breathe and that makes us get sleepy and that makes us jump > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > startled are all instinctual. The rest, we might say, is > > > > > > > man-made. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007, at 10:00 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > limited. We have then developed thought to deal with more > > > > > > > complex > > > > > > > > > situations, but even thought is not very subtle. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > > > feelings, and the instincts, could be put more or less > > > > > > > together, > > > > > > > > > and the intelligence goes beyond all of them. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be > > > > > > > realized by > > > > > > > > > our total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by > > > > > > > our history > > > > > > > > > or by our thought. It is really open and creative. This is > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > crucial point. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct > > > > > > > of self > > > > > > > > > - preservation. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > Instinct is an inherited reflex. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an > > > > > > > initial > > > > > > > > > significance, grounded in the whole accumulated > > > > > > > instinctive > > > > > > > > > response to the experience of the species, and partly on a > > > > > > > kind of > > > > > > > > > significance that is grounded in past experience. From the > > > > > > > deep > > > > > > > > > initial intention to act toward an object, the action > > > > > > > incorporates > > > > > > > > > or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and > > > > > > > outward > > > > > > > > > activity. The action changes the perception, and there is > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > > action, and then another perception. Does the action fit > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > intention? The intention is modified and thus the action > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and > > > > > > > > > consequences, after which it may remain stable until > > > > > > > further > > > > > > > > > discrepancies occur. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > As civilization grew, you could no longer count on > > > > > > > instinct for > > > > > > > > > safety; an electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. > > > > > > > > > ~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Irene > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Irene > > > > > > -- > Irene > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/d0d7ed38/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 02:40:18 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 02:47:18 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] com&passio In-Reply-To: <D8867F68-E73C-4912-98F3-058C30308D76@dc.rr.com> References: <979627.36051.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <57061.57555.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <c47283890712211332v7290c238x7f8e47c6ad7fc33f@mail.gmail.com> <D8867F68-E73C-4912-98F3-058C30308D76@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712211740qae78ebew5fd16e0d0135816c@mail.gmail.com> K: Yes, I'm going to visit Janoh. I just heard from her today. I'll give her your regards. On Dec 21, 2007 8:25 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > Totnes? I used to live there. We did some interesting dialogue work at > Dartington - which see. Are you going to meet up with Janoh? Say hello for > me. Also ask her to introduce you to Detta, one of the greats > don > > On Dec 21, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Irene Darcy wrote: > > K: Just might do that. Did I mention I may be in Dresden in June, hop on > a train to Totnes, then why not back on a train to Munich. One of our > Dalcroze people is buried in Perlmutter Forest. He was a member of the > German Resistance to Hitler. The SS caught and executed him the last day of > the war. And beheaded his nephew. > > shit, ka, if you want to see him 'live' > just hopp over the ocean > i am positive he is, at least a bit, dying to meat you > > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 4:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > <tag> > > >>passion , >>compassion, >>william > > </tag> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this one is a "keeper": > > > > *I didn't mean coping with the sense of detachment. I meant how to cope > > with > > the tendency to suspend more and more; what you call "layered" > > suspension > > (resulting in a sense of "detachment" for lack of a better word). You > > see, > > at some point it starts getting a bit anti-social. When you are always > > suspending, people are not getting their expected responses anymore. > > Usually > > the reason for someone to say something or do something is to get a > > response > > This is also the case when someone utters an insult, or attempt to hurt > > you: they usually do this because they are disappointed or angry; and > > they > > want a reaction that shows they have touched you. Now, if you are always > > in > > suspense mode then the attempted hurt doesn't work, because there is no > > reaction on your side. At first glance this is perhaps not a bad thing > > because it usually prevents the situation from escalating. However, > > there > > is another aspect to this, which is that the attempted hurt could be > > regarded as a form of communication; they are trying to say something. > > If > > you don't respond, don't react (as a result of suspension) then you are > > effectively refusing to communicate on this level. You may be willing to > > > > communicate on a different level but that channel is not open both ways. > > The > > point is, you are denying communication on the channel on which it is > > invited. * > > * > > So, what do you say to this? Because i am assuming it is not actually > > your > > intention to deny communication. You are probably in compassion mode, > > which > > however is not the channel open to whoever wants to touch you. Have you > > reached a point where you would consider suspending suspension, out of > > compassion, and give the person the feeling of having touched you? Would > > you > > like to comment before i go further? You realize, of course, where this > > is > > leading up to.* > > > > herr will-i-am, annos demzbros eightos twentyzerozerosevenos > > > > > > *"Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > > ka, you 'see' (not): > > ii is really not into william > > ii means, against coomon dobelief here > > that ii 'hates' or dislikes or whatever him: > > s'he is just a(nother)voice in this > > primordial soup of dialogue > > --- she 's a bit of a control'freak'out, tho ;--) > > > > but hey, whatever turns his crank & > > pushis but tons > > > > he is, after all, a creature of *(2nd generation)* > > *pass i on* > > > > > > > > wait, will clip & plug that in here > > > > > > &&&, of course that didoes answer your re:quest not > > shit, ka, if you want to see him 'live' > > just hopp over the ocean > > i am positive he is, at least a bit, dying to meat you > > > > > > > > > > > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > I: Hi Pit! > > > > btw - speaking of Googling people, I Googled William, but I can't find > > anything on OUR William. There are plenty of William van den Heuvels out > > there. I'd love to hear how William met Bohm, how all this ties in with his > > life work, his interests, etc. I'd love to have a fuller picture of him, > > actually all of us, as live people. > > > > On Dec 21, 2007 3:58 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > will i am is so full of ..it ... > > > no, wait,.... so empti ;-) > > > > > > )( > > > > > > > > > w@net: > > > No, I have never studied anything. I suppose, that saves me .... > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Irene > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > -- > Irene > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071221/13e79570/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 16:37:46 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 16:44:53 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less References: <001d01c555bc$3ee2a2e0$0502a8c0@DESKTOP1><f6040a0a0712211529x2592abafka42ca0647b7a7658@mail.gmail.com> <A4730449-5F2A-4E31-A7DC-4E0F45281830@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <005901c844b0$99d5fd10$b5c16018@DL01> Yes Franis, welcome and where are you? -- dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ ----- Original Message ----- From: donald factor To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] moderate to immoderate, more and less Hi welcome back, where are you? don \ On Dec 21, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Franis wrote: Hi all! I'm back reading and listening again with regular Internet access. Nice to see you're all still here, well, except for the perennial pit. As far as the appeal to being open as a policy: yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that one before. But what about addressing the bulk of us who have seen pit's trolling, etc. shenanigans before and are not so interested in reading them again, ad infinite? One answer is - I don't mind reading what you guys have to say because it's interesting as I browse here...don't like the format of gmail much, but it's better than nothing... But have to admit I'm a little disappointed that pit (perhaps short for pitiful, but probably short for pitbull) has emerged again in different sheep's clothing. Oh well. <sigh> Melekaliki Maka for those who celebrate that sort of thing... think I'll put my energy into starting an in-person Dialogue group where I happen to be now again. Love, Franis On 5/10/05, Allan <allan.mckenna@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: A dialogue group must be open. It must be available to the input of all opinions and individuals from all kinds of cultural and ideational backgrounds.. Silencing certain people and allowing others to speak....is that really how you want to conduct affairs?? That seems to me to be closed-minded. Certainly, people can choose what they want to accept or dismiss. Accepting or rejecting a person altogether, is a different matter. Acceptance fosters understanding. Isn't that what we are here for? Peter may test the boundaries, and doesn't growth occur at the edges? As a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, we should not censor another's ideas by banning them from the forum. The only rule there should be is that posts containing abusive content gets deleted. We can keep this respectful while remaining challenging, right? _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/fedc0386/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 17:06:13 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 17:13:23 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes References: <20071221.130056.3184.195.ae.dropper@juno.com> Message-ID: <010801c844b4$937e0210$b5c16018@DL01> The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may remain stable until further discrepancies occur. -- Pat, quoting Bohm The thought occurs of rephrasing "The initial intention is to find meaning" to say that the initial impulse is to be or get back into synch with ontic intention, with what really is. That is, one discovers one's ongoing MENTAL MAP is out of step with what actually is. This seems to occur regularly. -- dl From: ae.dropper@juno.com To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 1:00 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is very limited. We have then developed thought to deal with more complex situations, but even thought is not very subtle. ~ The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory based feelings, and the instincts, could be put more or less together, and the intelligence goes beyond all of them. ~ There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be realized by our total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by our history or by our thought. It is really open and creative. This is a crucial point. ~ Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct of self - preservation. ~ Instinct is an inherited reflex. ~ The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may remain stable until further discrepancies occur. ~ As civilization grew, you could no longer count on instinct for safety; an electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. ~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/8d32afe9/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 17:13:35 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 17:20:42 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes In-Reply-To: <010801c844b4$937e0210$b5c16018@DL01> References: <20071221.130056.3184.195.ae.dropper@juno.com> <010801c844b4$937e0210$b5c16018@DL01> Message-ID: <c47283890712220813j57010150ve53b8438beb29b1d@mail.gmail.com> I: Don, that's pretty potent stuff in light of what I was reading last night. atm am exhausted, and got absolutely no Bach done yesterday. Need to immerse myself there. Let's talk about it later. On Dec 22, 2007 11:06 AM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: > *The initial intention is to find meaning.* There may be an initial > significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the > experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is > grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward > an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of > inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is > another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the > intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until > a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may > remain stable until further discrepancies occur. -- Pat, quoting Bohm > > The thought occurs of rephrasing "*The initial intention is to find > meaning*" to say that the initial impulse is to be or* get back into synch > with ontic intention, with what really is.* > > That is, one discovers one's *ongoing MENTAL MAP* is out of step with *what > actually is*. This seems to occur regularly. -- dl > ** > *From:* ae.dropper@juno.com > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2007 1:00 PM > *Subject:* [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes > > Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is very limited. We > have then developed thought to deal with more complex situations, but even > thought is not very subtle. > ~ > The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory based feelings, > and the instincts, could be put more or less together, and the intelligence > goes beyond all of them. > ~ > *There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be realized by our > total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by our history or by our > thought. It is really open and creative. This is a crucial point. > *~ > Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct of self - > preservation. > ~ > Instinct is an inherited reflex. > ~ > The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial > significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the > experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is > grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward > an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of > inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is > another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the > intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until > a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may > remain stable until further discrepancies occur. > ~ > As civilization grew, you could no longer count on instinct for safety; an > electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. > ~ > > ------------------------------ > > > > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue> > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/b4e53161/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 17:16:25 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 17:23:29 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our Poem References: <20071219.131021.3184.157.ae.dropper@juno.com> <BAY123-W423C42B47B63E422EA6725DC5E0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <012101c844b6$0000acc0$b5c16018@DL01> afterwards the streets are dangerous, graves and dialogue are also temporary -- Rob Attention to poetry yields the experience of seeing deeply, not seeing a superficial thinK, but participating deeply in the reasonable and meaningful structures of being, in reasonable and rational structures by which wholeness is experienced. -- dl From: rob mooney To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 4:18 PM Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our Poem afterwards the streets are dangerous, graves and dialogue are also temporary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:25:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our Poem From: ae.dropper@juno.com The pieces shimmer with belonging in their temporary seats On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:53:43 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes: Fullness pours out what I see it does not seem it all empties into white the mounds of it - frozen overnight in the fine snow, crystals, worms throw up casts. On my screen I see it black but I know up close you can see the colors - LOOK - there is no black in transmitted light. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search Charades! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Messenger on the move. Text MSN to 63463 now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/6c572623/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 18:10:30 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 18:18:41 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes References: <20071221.130056.3184.195.ae.dropper@juno.com> <010801c844b4$937e0210$b5c16018@DL01> Message-ID: <017001c844bd$9b84f9b0$b5c16018@DL01> If it is reasonable to see that one's ongoing MENTAL MAP is out of step with what actually is, then maybe it is possible to see that the MENTAL MAP regards social reality, or SOS reality at the expense of ontic actuality. Maybe the social, SOS, reality can be seen as language propositions, assertions, and ontic actuality as what actually is ... noetic and ineffable. Ineffable derives from the Latin indicating it cannot be spoken. Why not" Maybe because it does not relate to the material view necessary for the persona. The Greek noetic from noesis indicates mind, and maybe mind as the reasonable, rational and meaningful structure of the whole of being. The Greek noesis and thus the English noetic does necessarily denote the persona. The Greeks also had the idea of the real and the really real or actual. Based on this, maybe we can see that the reality of the known social existence is at variance with the actuality that the universe is mostly unknown, and perhaps, if language is required for knowing, then unknowable. -- dl From: Don Lay To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may remain stable until further discrepancies occur. -- Pat, quoting Bohm The thought occurs of rephrasing "The initial intention is to find meaning" to say that the initial impulse is to be or get back into synch with ontic intention, with what really is. That is, one discovers one's ongoing MENTAL MAP is out of step with what actually is. This seems to occur regularly. -- dl From: ae.dropper@juno.com To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 1:00 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] INSTINCT - Random Bohm Quotes Instinct can be thought of as a racial memory. This is very limited. We have then developed thought to deal with more complex situations, but even thought is not very subtle. ~ The whole process of memory, including thought, the memory based feelings, and the instincts, could be put more or less together, and the intelligence goes beyond all of them. ~ There is an infinitely subtle possibility that can be realized by our total being. This is not bound by the instincts, by our history or by our thought. It is really open and creative. This is a crucial point. ~ Absolute Necessity overrides everything, even the instinct of self - preservation. ~ Instinct is an inherited reflex. ~ The initial intention is to find meaning. There may be an initial significance, grounded in the whole accumulated instinctive response to the experience of the species, and partly on a kind of significance that is grounded in past experience. From the deep initial intention to act toward an object, the action incorporates or assimilates the object into a cycle of inward and outward activity. The action changes the perception, and there is another action, and then another perception. Does the action fit the intention? The intention is modified and thus the action is modified, until a fit is obtained between intentions and consequences, after which it may remain stable until further discrepancies occur. ~ As civilization grew, you could no longer count on instinct for safety; an electrical wire could hurt us, a hot stove. ~ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/2177965b/attachment.html From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Dec 22 18:42:54 2007 From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com) Date: Sat Dec 22 18:51:38 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our Poem Message-ID: <20071222.124301.3184.216.ae.dropper@juno.com> The pieces shimmer with belonging in their temporary seats watching the parade of dueling delusion afterwards the streets are dangerous, graves and dialogue are also temporary biting with word biting the tongue - with light rain on the roof of the house of being, this dissipation plays On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:18:17 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes: afterwards the streets are dangerous, graves and dialogue are also temporary To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:25:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our Poem From: ae.dropper@juno.com The pieces shimmer with belonging in their temporary seats On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:53:43 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes: Fullness pours out what I see it does not seem it all empties into white the mounds of it - frozen overnight in the fine snow, crystals, worms throw up casts. On my screen I see it black but I know up close you can see the colors - LOOK - there is no black in transmitted light. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/bfc21e84/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 20:08:40 2007 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:15:54 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness Message-ID: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello, group exploring online, There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.) The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is. The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at. On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we? Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all... Love, Kari ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/75bd79e0/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 20:19:00 2007 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:26:08 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement Message-ID: <75913.68078.qm@web52906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just found these posts because of how many spam and bohm dialogue posts, some of which are the same thing...Susan I am to the point of deleting many posts without reading, which I feel bad about, but it seems reasonable to do unfortunately. Yours, however, I read. I sent one titled spam and aloneness that you might have something to respond to. Kari ----- Original Message ---- From: Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:27:45 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement Maybe so, but I don't join a group so I can spend the majority of my time deleting posts. If there's anything worth reading in there it doesn't seem to be worth the time to search it out. I mostly just sit and hit delete. I really don't care about "looseness", I would like to have a discussion about beliefs and the positive aspects of self. I keep coming back to the group hoping there will be some kind of change but in all the years it's been here it seems to stay pretty much the same. Like I said, if this is all the people of the list want dialogue to be then I would rather not participate. I may simply change my profile to "no mail" so that I can check back in once in a while, but this same old nonsense of Peter and dl dominating the group seems hardly worth the trouble to read. Susan ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/f4a43511/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 20:21:36 2007 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:28:45 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line Message-ID: <877688.67400.qm@web52909.mail.re2.yahoo.com> disaster all around ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/0a49e895/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 20:27:42 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:34:48 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c844d0$b91449a0$b5c16018@DL01> Kari: "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. dl: For what it's worth, I do not believe what you are saying indicates anything pathological. Kari: What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we? dl: I know these questions very well, appreciate them very much and often experience them and appreciate what you are talking about. Maybe the idea is to consider the views of others and also experience how their views modify our views. Maybe the whole is a learning experience. I'm both glad and thankful to see these questions put and addressed. Maybe the putting of them is far more important than "final answers". -- dl From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:08 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness Hello, group exploring online, There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.) The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is. The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at. On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we? Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all... Love, Kari ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/d3bbdea0/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 20:30:19 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:37:23 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line References: <877688.67400.qm@web52909.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003301c844d1$16ad5110$b5c16018@DL01> disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/ef4344de/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 20:50:49 2007 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Sat Dec 22 20:58:00 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line Message-ID: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue as we sleep From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/07f5be17/attachment.html From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 22 20:59:57 2007 From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons) Date: Sat Dec 22 21:07:12 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME> This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it. It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time. playing with thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari emotionally raw deep, deep, tension large, and warm I did not plan it so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not a sense of separation, of woundedness doubting if I really know anything, am I am just a joke of a person? yet I know my capacity to experience is beyond what I seem to know can I trust my nature to take care of me? so far I'm still here...or something is so this is just where I am at Can't think of anything that says is better than that. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness Hello, group exploring online, There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.) The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is. The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at. On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we? Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all... Love, Kari ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/9b9ea8b8/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 21:11:29 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 21:18:35 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME> Message-ID: <006e01c844d6$d6b9cc90$b5c16018@DL01> Thanks Susan. Because of what I have been working on for years, I especially appreciate the line: "I am just a joke of a person?" -- and it seems many people think that if you ask seriously interesting questions as does Bohm -- and as does Kari. I am thankful to know that others may have the same thought, feels, etc. Thanks Kari! -- dl From: Susan Clemons To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it. It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time. playing with thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari emotionally raw deep, deep, tension large, and warm I did not plan it so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not a sense of separation, of woundedness doubting if I really know anything, am I am just a joke of a person? yet I know my capacity to experience is beyond what I seem to know can I trust my nature to take care of me? so far I'm still here...or something is so this is just where I am at Can't think of anything that says is better than that. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness Hello, group exploring online, There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.) The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is. The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at. On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we? Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all... Love, Kari ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/189342af/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 21:16:07 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 21:23:11 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01> disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue as we sleep clearly reason and meaning make the self a self and reason and meaning are not jokes From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue as we sleep From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/becf57df/attachment.html From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sat Dec 22 22:39:15 2007 From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor) Date: Sat Dec 22 22:46:28 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line In-Reply-To: <009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01> References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01> Message-ID: <91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com> Reason and meaning. Two little words. What do they mean? What is their reason? Do they count when Disaster is all around? And who does the counting? Who can? don On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote: > disaster all around > and so i try > to participate > in bohm dialogue > as we sleep > > clearly reason and meaning > make the self a self > and reason and meaning > are not jokes > > > From: Karilen Mays > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > disaster all around > and so i try > to participate > in bohm dialogue > as we sleep > > From: Karilen Mays > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM > Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/8e82e92e/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 22:46:48 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 22:53:59 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line In-Reply-To: <91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com> References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01> <91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com> I: Who can? We can - just so The !@#$ Doesn't hit the fan! On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > Reason and meaning.Two little words. > What do they mean? > What is their reason? > Do they count when > Disaster is all around? > And who does > the counting? > Who can? > > don > > On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote: > > disaster all around > and so i try > to participate > in bohm dialogue > as we sleep > > clearly reason and meaning > make the self a self > and reason and meaning > are not jokes > > > *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > disaster all around > and so i try > to participate > in bohm dialogue > as we sleep > > *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM > *Subject:* [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > ------------------------------ > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/700aec46/attachment.html From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 22 22:57:49 2007 From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay) Date: Sat Dec 22 23:04:55 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01><91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com> <c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01> Meaning is reason Reason is meaning This is the season For reasonable leaning Toward the idea Of reason and meaning From: Irene Darcy To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line I: Who can? We can - just so The !@#$ Doesn't hit the fan! On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: Reason and meaning. Two little words. What do they mean? What is their reason? Do they count when Disaster is all around? And who does the counting? Who can? don On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote: disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue as we sleep clearly reason and meaning make the self a self and reason and meaning are not jokes From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line disaster all around and so i try to participate in bohm dialogue as we sleep From: Karilen Mays To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -- Irene ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/109971a2/attachment.html From admin at david-bohm.net Sat Dec 22 23:01:10 2007 From: admin at david-bohm.net (dialogue-admin) Date: Sat Dec 22 23:08:28 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] message from admin References: <942989.91927.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <476D8925.000005.04180@VAIO-584793128F> Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by the bohm_dialogue list server. He has been unsubscribed as a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his own server as humanimal@thinkg net. I suggest you update your spam filter. admin Return-Path: <humanimal@thinkg.net> Delivery-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:10 +0100 Received: from host52.host52-server.com (host52.host52-server.com [66.49.137 121]) by mx.kundenserver.de (node=mxeu25) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKstg-1J680E0KyC-0004k8 ; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:10 +0100 X-ClientAddr: 127.0.0.1 Received: from www.thinkg.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host52.host52-server.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id lBMHJ33G015778; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:03 -0500 Received: from 70.23.253.227 (SquirrelMail authenticated user humanimal@thinkg.net) by www.thinkg.net with HTTP; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:08 -0500 (GMT) Message-ID: <50379.70.23.253.227.1198343948.squirrel@www.thinkg.net> In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1198287578.1367.bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> References: <mailman.2.1198287578.1367.bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:08 -0500 (GMT) Subject: Re: Request to mailing list Bohm_D From: humanimal@thinkg.net To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Canaca-Com_Inc.-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-Canaca-Com_Inc.-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details X-MailScanner-From: humanimal@thinkg.net Envelope-To: w@david-bohm.net Ooooooooooh, noooooooooo problema, senor will just use one of the other few hand-full-full-fulls ;---)) ciao cheers .... later ... (wellaugh: soooon) humanimal > Your request to the Bohm_Dialogue mailing list > > Subscription request > > has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the > following reason for rejecting your request: > > "[No reason given]" > > Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator > at: > > bohm_dialogue-owner@david-bohm.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/13012db0/attachment.html From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 23:02:36 2007 From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy) Date: Sat Dec 22 23:09:47 2007 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line In-Reply-To: <00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01> References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01> <91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com> <c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com> <00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01> Message-ID: <c47283890712221402t549337dn6523ce9da2b4903a@mail.gmail.com> I: Don's poetic ploys Bring much joy. On Dec 22, 2007 4:57 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: > Meaning is reason > Reason is meaning > > This is the season > For reasonable leaning > > Toward the idea > Of reason and meaning > > > ** > *From:* Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:46 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > I: Who can? > We can - just so > The !@#$ <%21@#$> > Doesn't hit the fan! > > On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: > > > Reason and meaning. Two little words. > > What do they mean? > > What is their reason? > > Do they count when > > Disaster is all around? > > And who does > > the counting? > > Who can? > > > > don > > > > On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote: > > > > disaster all around > > and so i try > > to participate > > in bohm dialogue > > as we sleep > > > > clearly reason and meaning > > make the self a self > > and reason and meaning > > are not jokes > > > > > > *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> > > > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM > > *Subject: *Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > > > > disaster all around > > and so i try > > to participate > > in bohm dialogue > > as we sleep > > > > *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> > > > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM > > *Subject:* [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > > > > -- > Irene > > ------------------------------ > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > -- Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071222/22af1d7e/attachment.html

From:	k;<k>
Subject:	humanature
Date:	Sun, December 23, 2007 9:31
To:	k
http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/see%20no%20evil.jpg http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/48/40/23404048.jpg ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: humanature From: kitkat22@rcn.com Date: Sun, December 23, 2007 9:23 To: <k> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's the only place I can be sure of being in touch with you when you "disappear" as you did before. Plus, I can sometimes get a good conversation there, whereas I can't most other places. What did you think of Albert's post to Kari? That story is interesting in the light of what you call human 'nature'. If you include what society has taught and ingrained in us, I guess I can accept the term. But with effort, because anything that's not food, sex, etc isn't 'nature'. I particularly disagree with those who say we all have 'animal' nature i.e. aggressive, predatory et al. and blame their behavior on "animals" as 'natural'. And Bohm agrees with me. On 12/23/07 8:59 AM, ".ß" <....> wrote: > > snip: > > "pit, you atenuts whoops are nuts to bother(with) these iiiiidiotts" > > > > > > > ok, so wherwhen does 'one' bother to > start\|end > bothering a'bout groups&dynamics > > humanaturexplorer pit > > > "unreal" (quote:records...)?: > http://www.rainydayrecords.net/images/homelandsecurity.jpg > > "real" (quote:army.mil)? > http://www.smdc.army.mil/SMDCPhoto_Gallery/Eagle/Dec04/homeland%20security-pri ddy0603.jpg > > ps: hey phonirene, how does it > (make you) > feel > to be > on > to be > part of > "the team" > > > > > > > * * * > > > > Subject: Re: humanature > From: "J > Date: Sun, December 23, 2007 8:28 > To: .ß <....> > > > On 23 Dec 2007, at 03:16, .ß wrote: > >> >> >> godog, bones, >> >> what a feast >> >> __ and just in tice for the "fest der liebe {{leibe??}} __ >> >> whoof whoof pet pit >> >> >> >> >> donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote, DEC 22: >> I am informed that pit is still subscribed here under yet another name, possibly more than one. He has written to Irene and quoted something she >> wrote to the list after he was unsubscribed. So, keep your eyes open for >> any hints. Susan has a very keen eye for such things. She was the first to >> spot that AEB was pit. >> >> don >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 22, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Don Lay wrote: >> >> Will-i-am: >> Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by the bohm_dialogue list server. He has been unsubscribed as >> a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his own server as humanimal@... I suggest you update your spam filter. -- >> admin >> >> Don L: >> Under the circumstances, I believe it is not inappropriate to pass on >> the following which I thought was sent to the Bohm list but was >> actually >> directed to one of Peter's addresses: >> >> [was something about Failure] >> >> If dialogue, from the Greek dia logos indicates reason, is it >> reasonable >> to expect a dialogue to be the use of reason and to eliminate the ignoring >> of or distortion of reason and meaning? >> >> It seems entirely reasonable, rational, and perhaps more to the point -- >> meaningful -- to not allow the lack of, or distortion of reason and meaning, to occur in place of dialogue. >> >> Some questions occur: >> >> May meaningful communication occur without reason, ratio, meaning? Does communication occur absent reason, ratio, and meaning? >> >> When reason, ration, meaning is distorted or absent, is communication possible? Is meaningful communication possible? >> >> My view is that the moderator's present actions are reasonable, rational >> and meaningful and are therefore, dialogical. -dl >> >> > > which all begs the qqqq of whow decides what is reason&able.... > > pit, you atenuts whoops are nuts to bother(with) these iiiiidiotts > > ciao jit > > >> >> >> bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org wrote: >> You are now unsubscribed from Bohm_Dialogue >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Download this as a file