From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 00:41:15 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 01:35:10 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060922154741.65115.qmail@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F277F26CBA3C50E9E9B6BF7A8210@phx.gbl>
Dear Zoe, yes, Reynold's. Why do animals (chat)group? Herding, for example.
Just watch here. "Risk dilution" of "predators'.... of that little cozy,
sleepy belief&system. Zoe, would you see this Bohm&Chat Group as such?
Belief, System? Early theorists developed ideas like 'mental contagion' and
'herd instinc', which became very popular. But as freud was quick to see,
these ideas never really did explain what men did with their judgment and
common sense when they got caught up in groups. Good old Freud saw right
away what they did with it: they simply became dependent children again,
blindly following the inner voice of their parents, which now came from them
under the hypnotic spell of the leader. A Belief/System is a leader, too,
dear Subscribers. TAS is a: "leader". Thus Subscribers abandoned their egos
to his, identified with his power, tried to function with him as an ideal.
Bohm/Dialog as crutch. Don't like "crutch/es"? try: Tit/s...
PS: Student;-? ....... I am the daughter of a millionaire.
Love & Nike, Kbot
>Kirsten - Thanks for that. Quite Interesting. Will look into that. By the
>way: Are you familiar with Craig Reynold's work (Boids)?
> 1, separation (avoid crowding neighbours)
> 2 , alignment (steer towards average heading of neighbours)
> 3 , cohesion (steer towards average position of neighbours)
> Somehow seems to resonate nicely with Solomon's work on TMT
> 1, to deny or belittle and devalue the importance third (second) party
>"Weltanschauung" (Hegel), but try
> 2, to controvert (To raise arguments against; voice opposition to) the
>ideas and opinions of others which may, as a consequence,
> 3, escalate into a conflict. Force. Violence. Elimination. You name it -
> What do you think? Are you a student, too? -- Zoe
>
>
>kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
>going):
>Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf, how many decades
>have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog? And? Any Lasers in
>sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At any 'rate', Zoe, this 'all'
>brings up the great problem raised by the therapeutic revolution, namely:::
>" So What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of really liberated
>people,
>at their best, we can't imagine that the world will be any pleasanter or
>less tragic a place. It may even be worse in still unknown ways. As Tillich
>warned us, and Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit here&there with T, New
>Being, under the conditions and limitations of existence, will only bring
>into play new and sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful
>disharmonies—a "more intense demonism." Reality is remorseless because gods
>do not walk upon the earth; and if men could become noble repositories of
>great gulfs of nonbeing, they would have even less peace than we oblivious
>and driven madmen have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic
>revolutions touch the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men
>in Russia, the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized
>and
>ignorant populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the
>liberation atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of
>small doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town,
>one
>is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the rest
>of
>the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this therapeutic
>megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are not to be perfect
>fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade away because one has
>analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well knew, or because one can
>make
>love with tenderness, as so many now believe. Forget it. In this sense
>again
>it is Freud's somber pessimism, especially of his later writings such as
>"Civilization and Its Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us
>human
>animals are doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and
>demonic world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this
>ship
>of fools.
>
>
>
>
>Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>
>
>
> >From: Zoe Chu
> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>cherish!
> >Glad M told me about this list.
> >
> > The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming stimuli
> >from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains might shut out
>this
> >same information through a process called "latent inhibition" - defined
>as
> >an animal's unconscious capacity to ignore stimuli that experience has
> >shown are irrelevant to its needs. Through psychological testing, the
> >researchers showed that creative individuals are much more likely to have
> >low levels of latent inhibition.
> >
> > "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the extra
> >information constantly streaming in from the environment," says Jordan
> >Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and then forgets about
> >it, even though that object is much more complex and interesting than he
>or
> >she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, is always open to new
> >possibilities."
> >
> > Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli
> >with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it might also
> >contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with high IQ.
> >
> > The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when
> >combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the capacity to
> >think about many things at once - but negative otherwise. Peterson
>states:
> >"If you are open to new information, new ideas, you better be able to
> >intelligently and carefully edit and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only
>two
> >or three are likely to be good. You have to be able to discriminate or
> >you'll get swamped."
> >
> > "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and creativity
> >seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low levels of latent
> >inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought might predispose to
> >mental illness under some conditions and to creative accomplishment under
> >others."
> >
> > For example, during the early stages of diseases such as schizophrenia,
> >which are often accompanied by feelings of deep insight, mystical
>knowledge
> >and religious experience, chemical changes take place in which latent
> >inhibition disappears.
> >
> > "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says Peterson.
> >"It appears that we have not only identified one of the biological bases
>of
> >creativity but have moved towards cracking an age-old mystery: the
> >relationship between genius, madness and the doors of perception."
> >
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by
> >variability
> >in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
> >activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused
> >than
> >extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts
>are
> >more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour
>is
> >such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely,
>the
> >extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as
> >predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
> >engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
> >--------------------------
> >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Hi Kristen -
> > >
> > > Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you make
> > >of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
> > >
> > > Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid each
> > >other while operating in a group raises the issue of self-organization,
> >and
> > >as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this
> >area.
> > >In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana,
>once
> >in
> > >the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant
> >with
> > >respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
> > >homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
> > >conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to
>survive.
> > >Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is the
> > >larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and
>those
> > >involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent devices
> > >cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays
>sufficient
> > >intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
> > >ultimately one day be forced to decide
> > > between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct)
> >and
> > >our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
> > >perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
> > >anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
>because
> >it
> > >could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it may
>be
> > >asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks
> >being
> > >the major operative.
> > >
> > > Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not confined
>to
> > >device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
> > >Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated international
> > >battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not
>only
> > >all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated globally
> >in
> > >a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
> > >assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to be
> > >used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
> > >situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in these
> > >synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if
>allowed
> > >to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the character
> >of
> > >the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a
>starting
> > >point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to be
> > >capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
> > > Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said
> >that
> > >it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible, rather
> >than
> > >the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given us
> > >ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of thinking
> > >about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
> > >another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
> > >
> > > -- Zoe
> > >
> > >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear habituated Susbcribers
> > >
> > >The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961 Master’s
> > >thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
> > >shift", meaning that a group’s decisions are riskier than the average
>of
> > >the individual decisions of members before the group met. The discovery
> >of
> > >the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive,
> >especially
> > >since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other
> >researchers
> > >suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did groups,
> > >leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that would
> > >conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
> > >counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research around
> >the
> > >risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
>exception
> >to
> > >the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it
>had
> > >become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes
> >that
> > >became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to term
> >the
> > >overall phenomenon "group polarization".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
> > >--------------------------
> > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > > >From: "kirsten schneide"
> > > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
> > > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Oh William, I like your
> > > >
> > > >Attitude/s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Love & Dress, Kirsten
> > > >
> > > >PS:
> > > >
> > > >There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that
> >causes
> > > >many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and to
> > >focus
> > > >instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
> > > >
> > > >The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has
> >caused
> > > >many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long time
> > > >scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
> > > >
> > > >In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes of
> > > >behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who
> >they
> > > >are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to
>the
> > > >larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however, scientific
> > > >advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while
> >offering
> > >an
> > > >image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
> > > >
> > > >Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
> > >scientists
> > > >understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the
>ancient
> > > >Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This:
>symbol
> >:
> > > >represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size
> >scales,
> > > >with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for
>unification
> >of
> > > >theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
> > > >
> > > >The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
> > > >magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
> > >Planck
> > > >scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics.
>Yet
> > > >people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless
>space
> > >and
> > > >uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
> > > >insignificance.
> > > >
> > > >Gute Nacht!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
> > > >> >about the Deikmans' piece.
> > > >>
> > > >>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
> > > >>
> > > >>William
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>info:
> > > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >>
> > > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > >_______________________________________________
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> > > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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> > >
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> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >---------------------------------
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> >
> >
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> > >info:
> > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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> >
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> >info:
> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
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> >
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 00:44:50 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 01:38:43 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Riskinky"
In-Reply-To: <20060922155631.67789.qmail@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F18283012C13FFFE7141BD5A8210@phx.gbl>
Dear Weltverbesserer ~
science and religion merge in a critique of the
deadening of perception of this kind of truth, and science
betrays us when it is willing to absorb lived truth all into
itself. here the criticism of all behaviorist psychology, all
manipulations of men, and all coercive utopianism comes to
rest. these techniques try to make the world other than it
is, legislate the grotesque out of it, inaugurate a "proper"
human condition. The psychologist kenneth clark, in his
recent presidential address to the American Psychological
Association, called for a new kind of chemical to deaden
man's aggressiveness and to make the world a less dangerous
place. the Watsons, the Skinners, the Pavlovians - all have
their formulas for smoothing thinkgs out. even freud -
enlightenment man that he was, after all - wanted to see a
saner world and seemed willing to absorb lived truth into
science if only it were possible. he once mused that in order
to really change thinkgs by therapy one would have to get at
the masses of men; and that the only way to do this would be
to mix the copper of suggestion into the pure gold of
psychoanalysis. in other words, to coerce, by transference, a
less evil world. but freud knew better, as he gradually came
to see that the evil in the world is not only in the insides
of people but on the outside, in nature - which is why he
became more realistic and pessimistic in his later work.
the problem with all the scientific manipulators is
that somehow they dont take life seriously enough; in thise
sense, all science is "bourgeois", an affair of bureaucrats.
I think that taking life seriously means something such as
this: that whatever man does on this planet has to be done in
the lived truth of the terror of creation, of the
grotesque, of the rumble of panic underneath everything.
Otherwise it is false. Whatever is achieved must be achieved
from within the subjective energies of creatures, without
deadening, with the full exercise of passion, of vision, of
pain, of fear, and of sorrow. How do we know - with
Rilke- that our part of the meaning of the universe might not
be a rhythm in sorrow? Manipulative, utopian science, by
deadening human sensitivity, would also deprive men of the
heroic in their urge to victory. And we know that in some
very important way this falsifies our struggle by emptying
us, by preventing us from incorporating the maximum of
experience. It means the end of the distinctively human- or
even, we must say, the distinctively organismic.
Love & Wetdreams, KiBot
>Dorothy - We are using that "line" of thinking building models in
>Catastrophe Theory (Christopher Zeeman) --- Zoe
>
>Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote: Joseph Campbell says live
>within the good and the bad. This is a "gray"
>existence. We are foolish to think it is all good or all bad. But
>living in it means doing our best-knowing there is good. That's my take
>on the world we live in. Likewise my belief is that there is "good" and
>"bad" in all of us whatever those words mean. D.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of kirsten
>schneide
>Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:38 AM
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
>going):
>Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf, how many
>decades have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog? And?
>Any Lasers in sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At any
>'rate', Zoe, this 'all'
>brings up the great problem raised by the therapeutic revolution,
>namely:::
>" So What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of really liberated
>people, at their best, we can't imagine that the world will be any
>pleasanter or less tragic a place. It may even be worse in still unknown
>ways. As Tillich warned us, and Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit
>here&there with T, New Being, under the conditions and limitations of
>existence, will only bring into play new and sharper paradoxes, new
>tensions, and more painful disharmonies-a "more intense demonism."
>Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if
>men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing, they
>would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen have
>today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the vast
>masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
>near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
>populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the liberation
>atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of small
>doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town, one
>is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the
>rest of the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this
>therapeutic megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are
>not to be perfect fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade
>away because one has analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well
>knew, or because one can make love with tenderness, as so many now
>believe. Forget it. In this sense again it is Freud's somber pessimism,
>especially of his later writings such as "Civilization and Its
>Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us human animals are
>doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and demonic
>world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this ship of
>fools.
>
>
>
>
>Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>
>
>
> >From: Zoe Chu
> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>cherish!
> >Glad M told me about this list.
> >
> > The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming
> >stimuli from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains might
> >shut out this same information through a process called "latent
> >inhibition" - defined as an animal's unconscious capacity to ignore
> >stimuli that experience has shown are irrelevant to its needs. Through
> >psychological testing, the researchers showed that creative individuals
>
> >are much more likely to have low levels of latent inhibition.
> >
> > "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the
> >extra information constantly streaming in from the environment," says
> >Jordan Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and then
> >forgets about it, even though that object is much more complex and
> >interesting than he or she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, is
>
> >always open to new possibilities."
> >
> > Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli
>
> >with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it might also
> >contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with high IQ.
> >
> > The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when
> >combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the capacity
> >to think about many things at once - but negative otherwise. Peterson
>states:
> >"If you are open to new information, new ideas, you better be able to
> >intelligently and carefully edit and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only
>
> >two or three are likely to be good. You have to be able to discriminate
>
> >or you'll get swamped."
> >
> > "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and creativity
>
> >seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low levels of latent
>
> >inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought might predispose to
> >mental illness under some conditions and to creative accomplishment
> >under others."
> >
> > For example, during the early stages of diseases such as
> >schizophrenia, which are often accompanied by feelings of deep insight,
>
> >mystical knowledge and religious experience, chemical changes take
> >place in which latent inhibition disappears.
> >
> > "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says
>Peterson.
> >"It appears that we have not only identified one of the biological
> >bases of creativity but have moved towards cracking an age-old mystery:
>
> >the relationship between genius, madness and the doors of perception."
> >
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by
> >variability in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by
> >higher levels of activity than extraverts and so are chronically more
> >cortically aroused than extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to
>
> >suppose that introverts are more aroused than extraverts, the putative
> >effect this has on behaviour is such that the introvert seeks lower
> >levels of stimulation. Conversely, the extravert seeks to heighten
> >their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as predicted by the
> >Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social engagement and
> >other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
> >--------------------------
> >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Hi Kristen -
> > >
> > > Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you
> > >make of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
> > >
> > > Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid
> > >each other while operating in a group raises the issue of
> > >self-organization,
> >and
> > >as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this
> >area.
> > >In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana,
> > >once
> >in
> > >the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant
> >with
> > >respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
> > >homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
> > >conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to
>survive.
> > >Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is
> > >the larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick
> > >and those involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on
> > >independent devices cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the
> > >device displays sufficient intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and
> > >prognostic stature, we may ultimately one day be forced to decide
> > >between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct)
> >and
> > >our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
> > >perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
> > >anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
> > >because
> >it
> > >could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it
> > >may be asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural
> > >networks
> >being
> > >the major operative.
> > >
> > > Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not
> > >confined to device implantation or automatons. Researching websites
>on the U.S.
> > >Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated
> > >international battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the
> > >day when not only all military systems are interoperable, but can be
> > >coordinated globally
> >in
> > >a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
> > >assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to
> > >be used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time
> > >battlefield situation. If this happens, we must consider
> > >self-organization in these synthetic systems operating in critical
> > >environments. That is, if allowed to operate with minimal or no human
>
> > >intervention, what of the character
> >of
> > >the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a
> > >starting point for a more serious discussion than the popular media
> > >seems to be capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
> > >Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said
> >that
> > >it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible,
> > >rather
> >than
> > >the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given
> > >us ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of
> > >thinking about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in
>
> > >favor of another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in
>order.
> > >
> > > -- Zoe
> > >
> > >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear habituated Susbcribers
> > >
> > >The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961
> > >Master's thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the
> > >so-called "risky shift", meaning that a group's decisions are riskier
>
> > >than the average of the individual decisions of members before the
> > >group met. The discovery
> >of
> > >the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive,
> >especially
> > >since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other
> >researchers
> > >suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did
> > >groups, leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions
> > >that would conform to the average risk level of its members. The
> > >seemingly counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of
> > >research around
> >the
> > >risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
> > >exception
> >to
> > >the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it
>
> > >had become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many
> > >attitudes
> >that
> > >became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to
> > >term
> >the
> > >overall phenomenon "group polarization".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
> > >--------------------------
> > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > > >From: "kirsten schneide"
> > > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
> > > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Oh William, I like your
> > > >
> > > >Attitude/s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Love & Dress, Kirsten
> > > >
> > > >PS:
> > > >
> > > >There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that
> >causes
> > > >many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and
> > > >to
> > >focus
> > > >instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
> > > >
> > > >The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has
> >caused
> > > >many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long
> > > >time scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
> > > >
> > > >In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes
> > > >of behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of
> > > >who
> >they
> > > >are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to
> > > >the larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however,
> > > >scientific advances have tended to undermine traditional
> > > >cosmologies while
> >offering
> > >an
> > > >image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
> > > >
> > > >Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
> > >scientists
> > > >understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the
> > > >ancient Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail.
> > > >This: symbol
> >:
> > > >represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size
> >scales,
> > > >with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for
> > > >unification
> >of
> > > >theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
> > > >
> > > >The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
> > > >magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
> > >Planck
> > > >scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics.
>
> > > >Yet people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of
> > > >endless space
> > >and
> > > >uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
> > > >insignificance.
> > > >
> > > >Gute Nacht!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks about the Deikmans'
>
> > > >> >piece.
> > > >>
> > > >>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
> > > >>
> > > >>William
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>info:
> > > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >>
> > > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >_________________________________________________________________
> > > >Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows
> > > >Live Spaces
> > >
> > >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=htt
> > >p://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >info:
> > > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >dialogue facilitator:
> > > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
> > >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=htt
> > >p://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmta
> > >gline
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >info:
> > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >dialogue facilitator:
> > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
> >
> >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >info:
> > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >dialogue facilitator:
> > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
> >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http:
> >//imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtaglin
> >e
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >info:
> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> >dialogue facilitator:
> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> >Administrator of the mailing list:
> >admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >info:
> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> >dialogue facilitator:
> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> >Administrator of the mailing list:
> >admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows
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>/www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
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>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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>
>_______________________________________________
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>
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 00:55:53 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Sep 24 01:49:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F8532FE1-D62D-4519-96C5-69FB7A06C0F4@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On 22 Sep 2006, at 14:37, kirsten schneide wrote:
> Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and
> if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing,
> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch
> the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia,
> the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and
> ignorant populations of almost every continent?
I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and
plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some
reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of
cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's experience.
I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature are not fixed nor
are they final. And if there is a limit, then it is yet to be
discovered.
Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms
or power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for
something beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear
of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly
with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had
no idea how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of
domesticating animals and were prey to the bigger and faster
predators. There was also a time when a consensus of the experts
agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel faster than a mile a
minute and that space travel was a physical impossibility. They also
agreed that, before Einstein came along that physics was finished.
pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised to become a
physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there was also
a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could
entertain themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that
to presuppose the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given
insures that such limitation will prove to be what you think it is,
at least for you
So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear
of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am
wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know,
who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that their
meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you
ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
don
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 02:40:30 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 03:34:23 2006
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <0MKwtQ-1GQrY10qHY-0003Ph@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F18BC24F6ADC57E6A5E9849A8260@phx.gbl>
William, Dear
You never fail to blow
Me
Mind ;-!
[Didont know you 're part
Of this posse] :::
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0006IUDB2/ref=dp_image_0/104-9701710-7463917?ie=UTF8&n=130&s=dvd
Ok, time for seating for a real
Flick
Salute
Love & (Hit)single, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
WWWilliam: We can not escape being part of the
>world. If we continue doing the same thing then the world will continue to
>be the same, if we do something else then the world will be something else.
>The state of the world depends on us; we are the wwworld.
_________________________________________________________________
Try the new Live Search today!
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From Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi Sat Sep 23 12:58:56 2006
From: Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi (Matti Vaittinen)
Date: Sun Sep 24 13:53:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060923135856.zd6h3dltok08s4og@imp1.uta.fi>
Peter, you forgot to mention this ;-) ::
http://www.thingk.net/TT/
as a "tool" ...
Best,
matti
Lainaus kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>:
> Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
> going): Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf,
> how many decades have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing'
> (Bohm)Dialog? And? Any Lasers in sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh"
> stuff? O Boy! At any 'rate', Zoe, this 'all' brings up the great
> problem raised by the therapeutic revolution, namely::: " So
> What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of really liberated
> people, at their best, we can't imagine that the world will be any
> pleasanter or less tragic a place. It may even be worse in still
> unknown ways. As Tillich warned us, and Donl likes to make-up
> himselves a bit here&there with T, New Being, under the conditions
> and limitations of existence, will only bring into play new and
> sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful disharmonies?a
> "more intense demonism." Reality is remorseless because gods do not
> walk upon the earth; and if men could become noble repositories of
> great gulfs of nonbeing,
> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the
> vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
> near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
> populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the liberation
> atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of small
> doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town, one
> is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the
> rest of the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this
> therapeutic megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are
> not to be perfect fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade
> away because one has analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well
> knew, or because one can make love with tenderness, as so many now
> believe. Forget it. In this sense again it is Freud's somber pessimism,
> especially of his later writings such as "Civilization and Its
> Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us human animals are
> doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and demonic
> world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this ship of
> fools.
>
>
>
>
> Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>
>
>
>> From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>> Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>> cherish! Glad M told me about this list.
>>
>> The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming
>> stimuli from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains
>> might shut out this same information through a process called
>> "latent inhibition" - defined as an animal's unconscious capacity
>> to ignore stimuli that experience has shown are irrelevant to its
>> needs. Through psychological testing, the researchers showed that
>> creative individuals are much more likely to have low levels of
>> latent inhibition.
>>
>> "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the
>> extra information constantly streaming in from the environment,"
>> says Jordan Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and
>> then forgets about it, even though that object is much more complex
>> and interesting than he or she thinks. The creative person, by
>> contrast, is always open to new possibilities."
>>
>> Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out
>> stimuli with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it
>> might also contribute to original thinking, especially when
>> combined with high IQ.
>>
>> The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive
>> when combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the
>> capacity to think about many things at once - but negative
>> otherwise. Peterson states: "If you are open to new information,
>> new ideas, you better be able to intelligently and carefully edit
>> and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only two or three are likely to
>> be good. You have to be able to discriminate or you'll get swamped."
>>
>> "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and
>> creativity seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low
>> levels of latent inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought
>> might predispose to mental illness under some conditions and to
>> creative accomplishment under others."
>>
>> For example, during the early stages of diseases such as
>> schizophrenia, which are often accompanied by feelings of deep
>> insight, mystical knowledge and religious experience, chemical
>> changes take place in which latent inhibition disappears.
>>
>> "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says
>> Peterson. "It appears that we have not only identified one of the
>> biological bases of creativity but have moved towards cracking an
>> age-old mystery: the relationship between genius, madness and the
>> doors of perception."
>>
>> Zoe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability
>> in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
>> activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused than
>> extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts are
>> more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour is
>> such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely, the
>> extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as
>> predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
>> engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
>> --------------------------
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kristen -
>>>
>>> Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you make
>>> of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
>>>
>>> Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid each
>>> other while operating in a group raises the issue of self-organization, and
>>> as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this area.
>>> In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana, once in
>>> the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant with
>>> respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
>>> homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
>>> conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to survive.
>>> Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is the
>>> larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and those
>>> involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent devices
>>> cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays sufficient
>>> intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
>>> ultimately one day be forced to decide
>>> between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct) and
>>> our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
>>> perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
>>> anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide" because it
>>> could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it may be
>>> asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks being
>>> the major operative.
>>>
>>> Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not confined to
>>> device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
>>> Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated international
>>> battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not only
>>> all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated globally in
>>> a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
>>> assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to be
>>> used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
>>> situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in these
>>> synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if allowed
>>> to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the character of
>>> the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a starting
>>> point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to be
>>> capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
>>> Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said that
>>> it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible, rather than
>>> the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given us
>>> ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of thinking
>>> about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
>>> another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
>>>
>>> -- Zoe
>>>
>>> kirsten schneide wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear habituated Susbcribers
>>>
>>> The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961 Master?s
>>> thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
>>> shift", meaning that a group?s decisions are riskier than the average of
>>> the individual decisions of members before the group met. The discovery of
>>> the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive, especially
>>> since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other researchers
>>> suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did groups,
>>> leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that would
>>> conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
>>> counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research around the
>>> risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case exception to
>>> the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it had
>>> become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes that
>>> became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to term the
>>> overall phenomenon "group polarization".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>
>>> >From: "kirsten schneide"
>>> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
>>> >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Oh William, I like your
>>> >
>>> >Attitude/s
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Love & Dress, Kirsten
>>> >
>>> >PS:
>>> >
>>> >There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that causes
>>> >many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and to
>>> focus
>>> >instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
>>> >
>>> >The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has caused
>>> >many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long time
>>> >scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
>>> >
>>> >In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes of
>>> >behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who they
>>> >are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to the
>>> >larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however, scientific
>>> >advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while offering
>>> an
>>> >image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
>>> >
>>> >Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
>>> scientists
>>> >understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the ancient
>>> >Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This: symbol :
>>> >represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size scales,
>>> >with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for unification of
>>> >theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
>>> >
>>> >The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
>>> >magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
>>> Planck
>>> >scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics. Yet
>>> >people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless space
>>> and
>>> >uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
>>> >insignificance.
>>> >
>>> >Gute Nacht!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
>>> >> >about the Deikmans' piece.
>>> >>
>>> >>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
>>> >>
>>> >>William
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>info:
>>> >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>> >>
>>> >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>> >>
>>> >>dialogue facilitator:
>>> >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>> >>
>>> >>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> >>admin@david-bohm.net
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >_________________________________________________________________
>>> >Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live
>>> >Spaces
>>>
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >info:
>>> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>> >
>>> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> >dialogue facilitator:
>>> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> >Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> >admin@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows
> Live Spaces
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
From Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi Sat Sep 23 13:15:10 2006
From: Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi (Matti Vaittinen)
Date: Sun Sep 24 14:09:05 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky", correction
In-Reply-To: <20060923135856.zd6h3dltok08s4og@imp1.uta.fi>
References: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
<20060923135856.zd6h3dltok08s4og@imp1.uta.fi>
Message-ID: <20060923141510.iqtg0p9u4oplw80w@imp1.uta.fi>
Oops, I meant this (if it works)::
http://www.thinkg.net/TT/
> Peter, you forgot to mention this ;-) ::
>
> http://www.thingk.net/TT/
>
>
> as a "tool" ...
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> matti
>
>
>
> Lainaus kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat
>> group going): Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri
>> Donf, how many decades have you taken care of (by) now by
>> 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog? And? Any Lasers in sight? In-sights?? Any
>> "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At any 'rate', Zoe, this 'all' brings up
>> the great problem raised by the therapeutic revolution,
>> namely::: " So What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of
>> really liberated people, at their best, we can't imagine that
>> the world will be any pleasanter or less tragic a place. It may
>> even be worse in still unknown ways. As Tillich warned us, and
>> Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit here&there with T, New
>> Being, under the conditions and limitations of existence, will
>> only bring into play new and sharper paradoxes, new tensions,
>> and more painful disharmonies?a "more intense demonism." Reality
>> is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if
>> men could become noble repositorie
>> s of great gulfs of nonbeing,
>> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
>> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the
>> vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
>> near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
>> populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the liberation
>> atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of small
>> doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town, one
>> is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the
>> rest of the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this
>> therapeutic megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are
>> not to be perfect fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade
>> away because one has analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well
>> knew, or because one can make love with tenderness, as so many now
>> believe. Forget it. In this sense again it is Freud's somber pessimism,
>> especially of his later writings such as "Civilization and Its
>> Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us human animals are
>> doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and demonic
>> world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this ship of
>> fools.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>>
>>> Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>>> cherish! Glad M told me about this list.
>>>
>>> The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming
>>> stimuli from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains
>>> might shut out this same information through a process called
>>> "latent inhibition" - defined as an animal's unconscious capacity
>>> to ignore stimuli that experience has shown are irrelevant to
>>> its needs. Through psychological testing, the researchers
>>> showed that creative individuals are much more likely to have
>>> low levels of latent inhibition.
>>>
>>> "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the
>>> extra information constantly streaming in from the environment,"
>>> says Jordan Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object,
>>> and then forgets about it, even though that object is much more
>>> complex and interesting than he or she thinks. The creative
>>> person, by contrast, is always open to new possibilities."
>>>
>>> Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out
>>> stimuli with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it
>>> might also contribute to original thinking, especially when
>>> combined with high IQ.
>>>
>>> The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive
>>> when combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the
>>> capacity to think about many things at once - but negative
>>> otherwise. Peterson states: "If you are open to new information,
>>> new ideas, you better be able to intelligently and carefully edit
>>> and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only two or three are likely
>>> to be good. You have to be able to discriminate or you'll get
>>> swamped."
>>>
>>> "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and
>>> creativity seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low
>>> levels of latent inhibition and exceptional flexibility in
>>> thought might predispose to mental illness under some conditions
>>> and to creative accomplishment under others."
>>>
>>> For example, during the early stages of diseases such as
>>> schizophrenia, which are often accompanied by feelings of deep
>>> insight, mystical knowledge and religious experience, chemical
>>> changes take place in which latent inhibition disappears.
>>>
>>> "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says
>>> Peterson. "It appears that we have not only identified one of the
>>> biological bases of creativity but have moved towards cracking
>>> an age-old mystery: the relationship between genius, madness
>>> and the doors of perception."
>>>
>>> Zoe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability
>>> in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
>>> activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically
>>> aroused than
>>> extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts are
>>> more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour is
>>> such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely, the
>>> extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as
>>> predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
>>> engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Kristen -
>>>>
>>>> Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you make
>>>> of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
>>>>
>>>> Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid each
>>>> other while operating in a group raises the issue of
>>>> self-organization, and
>>>> as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this area.
>>>> In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto
>>>> Maturana, once in
>>>> the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant with
>>>> respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
>>>> homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
>>>> conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to survive.
>>>> Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is the
>>>> larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and those
>>>> involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent devices
>>>> cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays sufficient
>>>> intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
>>>> ultimately one day be forced to decide
>>>> between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct) and
>>>> our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
>>>> perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
>>>> anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
>>>> because it
>>>> could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it may be
>>>> asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks being
>>>> the major operative.
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not confined to
>>>> device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
>>>> Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated international
>>>> battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not only
>>>> all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated globally in
>>>> a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
>>>> assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to be
>>>> used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
>>>> situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in these
>>>> synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if allowed
>>>> to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the character of
>>>> the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a starting
>>>> point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to be
>>>> capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
>>>> Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said that
>>>> it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible,
>>>> rather than
>>>> the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given us
>>>> ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of thinking
>>>> about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
>>>> another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
>>>>
>>>> -- Zoe
>>>>
>>>> kirsten schneide wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear habituated Susbcribers
>>>>
>>>> The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961 Master?s
>>>> thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
>>>> shift", meaning that a group?s decisions are riskier than the average of
>>>> the individual decisions of members before the group met. The discovery of
>>>> the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive, especially
>>>> since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other researchers
>>>> suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did groups,
>>>> leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that would
>>>> conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
>>>> counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research around the
>>>> risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
>>>> exception to
>>>> the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it had
>>>> become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes that
>>>> became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to term the
>>>> overall phenomenon "group polarization".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
>>>> --------------------------
>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>>
>>>>> From: "kirsten schneide"
>>>>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
>>>>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh William, I like your
>>>>>
>>>>> Attitude/s
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Love & Dress, Kirsten
>>>>>
>>>>> PS:
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that causes
>>>>> many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and to
>>>> focus
>>>>> instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has caused
>>>>> many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long time
>>>>> scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes of
>>>>> behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who they
>>>>> are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to the
>>>>> larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however, scientific
>>>>> advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while offering
>>>> an
>>>>> image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
>>>> scientists
>>>>> understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the ancient
>>>>> Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This: symbol :
>>>>> represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size scales,
>>>>> with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for unification of
>>>>> theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
>>>>>
>>>>> The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
>>>>> magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
>>>> Planck
>>>>> scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics. Yet
>>>>> people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless space
>>>> and
>>>>> uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
>>>>> insignificance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gute Nacht!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
>>>>>> >about the Deikmans' piece.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not much; as much nonsense as ever
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> info:
>>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live
>>>>> Spaces
>>>>
>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows
>> Live Spaces
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 14:02:10 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Sep 24 14:56:06 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060923141510.iqtg0p9u4oplw80w@imp1.uta.fi>
References: <BAY107-F32DD05AFDDBBDDE53768C5A8210@phx.gbl>
<20060923135856.zd6h3dltok08s4og@imp1.uta.fi>
<20060923141510.iqtg0p9u4oplw80w@imp1.uta.fi>
Message-ID: <6AFCC5DA-D1EC-4A89-87D3-D626C05ADDD5@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
"....during the past few decades, modern technology, with radio, tv,
air travel, and satellites, has woven a network of communication
which puts each part of the world in to almost instant contact with
all the other parts. yet, in spite of this world-wide system of
linkages, there is, at this very moment, a general feeling that
communication is breaking down everywhere, on an unparalleled scale...."
david bohm in "On Dialogue"
The question that was never asked, is "Is this perception accurate?"
On the surface it would seem so. But I wonder if it isn't a result of
the vast number of communications reaching more and more of us at
increasing speed. Too much information may be no information at all.
Looking back in history, we might notice that for well over a
thousand years, Europeans were fighting each other in an almost
constant string of wars. Peace was defined as the intervals between
them. Baronies and Princedoms were endlessly warring against each
other. There were even wars between opposing Popes, not to mention
different Christian sects. This didn't end until very recently as
the European Union has expanded. Maybe it won't last, but so far it
has given every indication that it will. Latin America was also a
place of constant warfare dating back into pre-history but today that
no longer appears to be the case. Africa and the middle East are
still riddled with warfare as are parts of Asia. But in total I think
you will find that the world is a much more peaceful place than ever
before even with the rise of militant religions. Terrorism during the
last few years, by the way, has been somewhat less worldwide than it
was back in the 70's and 80's according to media reports. So, the
sense that communication is breaking down everywhere may be an
artefact of the vast increase in communication.
It would be fairer to propose that there is an increase in
miscommunication, of so much noise that meaningful signals get
drowned out. But what seems obvious to me, is that not all of them
are getting drowned out somethings are changing, and for the better.
don
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Sep 23 14:17:49 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Sep 24 15:11:55 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060924100003.84A3A2307A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF32AF1AAC.F25D7637-ON852571F2.00434C08-852571F2.00438CB1@dialogos.com>
Rodger __whose voice is speaking? _R
.
From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Good old Freud saw right away what they did with it: they simply became
dependent children again,
blindly following the inner voice of their parents, which now came from
them under the hypnotic spell of the leader.
.
.
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 14:48:48 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 15:42:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <F8532FE1-D62D-4519-96C5-69FB7A06C0F4@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F3464789CD902DCC2C13046A8260@phx.gbl>
Dear Animalfactor ~ if this fear were as constantly conscious,
we should be unable to function normally. It must be properly
repressed to keep us living with any modicum of
comfort. We know very well that to repress means more than to
put away and to forget that which was put away and the place
where we put it. It means also to maintain a constant
psychological effort to keep the lid on and inwardly never
relax our watchfulness.
Therefore in normal times we move about actually
without ever believing in our own death, as if we fully
believed in our own corporeal immortality. We are intent on
mastering death....A man will say, of course, that he knows
he will die some day, but he does not really care. He is
having a good time with living, and he does not think about
death and does not care to bother about it - but this is a
purely intellectual, verbal admission. The affect of fear is
repressed.
In general this kind of fear is defensive, in the sense that
it is a protection of our self-esteem, of our love and
respect for ourselves. We tend to be afraid of any knowledge
that could cause us to despise ourselves or to make us feel
inferior, weak, worthless, evil, shameful. We protect
ourselves and our ideal image of ourselves by repression and
similar defenses, which are essentially techniques by which
we avoid becoming conscious of unpleasant or dangerous
truths..... at any 'rate': keep on wet & dreaming, dear.
Love & Nailpolishremover, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if
>>men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing, they
>>would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen have
>>today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the vast
>>masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
>>near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
>>populations of almost every continent?
>
>
>I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and actually
>doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and plagiarising
>his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some reason had a very
>rough time of it, even after writing his masterpiece, The Denial of Death,
>he couldn't hold a job. He died of cancer at a very young age. Pity. But
>this was one man's experience. I figure we have a choice. The laws of
>human nature are not fixed nor are they final. And if there is a limit,
>then it is yet to be discovered.
>
>Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
>communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience love
>without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms or power.
>Simple things like this hold out possibilities for something beyond what
>you might call our biological necessities.
>
>You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear of
>death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly with a
>bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had no idea how
>to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of domesticating animals
>and were prey to the bigger and faster predators. There was also a time
>when a consensus of the experts agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel
>faster than a mile a minute and that space travel was a physical
>impossibility. They also agreed that, before Einstein came along that
>physics was finished. pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised
>to become a physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there
>was also a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
>houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could entertain
>themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that to presuppose
>the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given insures that such
>limitation will prove to be what you think it is, at least for you
>
>So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic posts of
>yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear of death. I
>read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am wrong." But nobody
>can do that for you. There are some here, I know, who have overcome there
>fear of death, and who know that their meaning does not die with them. So
>iif you are frightened, maybe you ought to gather up your courage and ask
>for help.
>
>don
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 14:52:10 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 15:46:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky", correction
In-Reply-To: <20060923141510.iqtg0p9u4oplw80w@imp1.uta.fi>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F2848877664621B4A22BFC4A8260@phx.gbl>
Dear Tvmatti ~ ~
http://www.tivi.de/imperia/md/images/pur/p_1er_160x170/peinlich_cool.jpg
Love & Streber, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Matti Vaittinen <Matti.Vaittinen@uta.fi>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky", correction
>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:15:10 +0300
>
>Oops, I meant this (if it works)::
>
>http://www.thinkg.net/TT/
>
>>Peter, you forgot to mention this ;-) ::
>>
>>http://www.thingk.net/TT/
>>
>>
>>as a "tool" ...
>>
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>
>>
>>matti
>>
>>
>>
>>Lainaus kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>>Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
>>>going): Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf, how
>>>many decades have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog?
>>>And? Any Lasers in sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At
>>>any 'rate', Zoe, this 'all' brings up the great problem raised by the
>>>therapeutic revolution, namely::: " So What?".... Even with numerous
>>>(chat) groups of really liberated people, at their best, we can't
>>>imagine that the world will be any pleasanter or less tragic a place.
>>>It may even be worse in still unknown ways. As Tillich warned us, and
>>> Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit here&there with T, New Being,
>>>under the conditions and limitations of existence, will only bring
>>>into play new and sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful
>>>disharmonies—a "more intense demonism." Reality is remorseless
>>>because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if men could become
>>>noble repositorie
>>>s of great gulfs of nonbeing,
>>>they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
>>>have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the
>>>vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
>>>near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
>>>populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the liberation
>>>atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of small
>>>doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town, one
>>>is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the
>>>rest of the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this
>>>therapeutic megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are
>>>not to be perfect fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade
>>>away because one has analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well
>>>knew, or because one can make love with tenderness, as so many now
>>>believe. Forget it. In this sense again it is Freud's somber pessimism,
>>>especially of his later writings such as "Civilization and Its
>>>Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us human animals are
>>>doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and demonic
>>>world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this ship of
>>>fools.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>>>Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>
>>>>Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>>>>cherish! Glad M told me about this list.
>>>>
>>>>The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming
>>>>stimuli from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains
>>>>might shut out this same information through a process called
>>>>"latent inhibition" - defined as an animal's unconscious capacity to
>>>>ignore stimuli that experience has shown are irrelevant to its
>>>>needs. Through psychological testing, the researchers showed that
>>>>creative individuals are much more likely to have low levels of
>>>>latent inhibition.
>>>>
>>>>"This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the
>>>>extra information constantly streaming in from the environment,"
>>>>says Jordan Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and
>>>>then forgets about it, even though that object is much more complex
>>>>and interesting than he or she thinks. The creative person, by
>>>>contrast, is always open to new possibilities."
>>>>
>>>>Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli
>>>>with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it might
>>>>also contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with
>>>>high IQ.
>>>>
>>>>The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when
>>>>combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the
>>>>capacity to think about many things at once - but negative
>>>>otherwise. Peterson states: "If you are open to new information, new
>>>>ideas, you better be able to intelligently and carefully edit and
>>>>choose. If you have 50 ideas, only two or three are likely to be
>>>>good. You have to be able to discriminate or you'll get swamped."
>>>>
>>>>"Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and creativity
>>>>seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low levels of
>>>>latent inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought might
>>>>predispose to mental illness under some conditions and to creative
>>>>accomplishment under others."
>>>>
>>>>For example, during the early stages of diseases such as
>>>>schizophrenia, which are often accompanied by feelings of deep
>>>>insight, mystical knowledge and religious experience, chemical
>>>>changes take place in which latent inhibition disappears.
>>>>
>>>>"We are very excited by the results of these studies," says
>>>>Peterson. "It appears that we have not only identified one of the
>>>>biological bases of creativity but have moved towards cracking an
>>>>age-old mystery: the relationship between genius, madness and the
>>>>doors of perception."
>>>>
>>>>Zoe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by
>>>>variability
>>>>in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
>>>>activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically
>>>>aroused than
>>>>extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts
>>>>are
>>>>more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour
>>>>is
>>>>such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely,
>>>>the
>>>>extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as
>>>>predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
>>>>engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
>>>>--------------------------
>>>>Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Kristen -
>>>>>
>>>>>Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you make
>>>>>of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>>Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid each
>>>>>other while operating in a group raises the issue of
>>>>>self-organization, and
>>>>>as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this
>>>>>area.
>>>>>In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana,
>>>>>once in
>>>>>the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant
>>>>>with
>>>>>respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
>>>>>homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
>>>>>conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to
>>>>>survive.
>>>>>Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is the
>>>>>larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and
>>>>>those
>>>>>involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent devices
>>>>>cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays
>>>>>sufficient
>>>>>intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
>>>>>ultimately one day be forced to decide
>>>>>between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct)
>>>>>and
>>>>>our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
>>>>>perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
>>>>>anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
>>>>>because it
>>>>>could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it may
>>>>>be
>>>>>asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks
>>>>>being
>>>>>the major operative.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not confined
>>>>>to
>>>>>device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
>>>>>Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated international
>>>>>battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not
>>>>>only
>>>>>all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated globally
>>>>>in
>>>>>a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
>>>>>assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to be
>>>>>used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
>>>>>situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in these
>>>>>synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if
>>>>>allowed
>>>>>to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the character
>>>>>of
>>>>>the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a
>>>>>starting
>>>>>point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to be
>>>>>capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
>>>>>Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said
>>>>>that
>>>>>it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible,
>>>>>rather than
>>>>>the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given us
>>>>>ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of thinking
>>>>>about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
>>>>>another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
>>>>>
>>>>>-- Zoe
>>>>>
>>>>>kirsten schneide wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear habituated Susbcribers
>>>>>
>>>>>The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961 Master’s
>>>>>thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
>>>>>shift", meaning that a group’s decisions are riskier than the average
>>>>>of
>>>>>the individual decisions of members before the group met. The discovery
>>>>>of
>>>>>the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive,
>>>>>especially
>>>>>since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other
>>>>>researchers
>>>>>suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did groups,
>>>>>leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that would
>>>>>conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
>>>>>counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research around
>>>>>the
>>>>>risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
>>>>>exception to
>>>>>the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it
>>>>>had
>>>>>become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes
>>>>>that
>>>>>became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to term
>>>>>the
>>>>>overall phenomenon "group polarization".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
>>>>>--------------------------
>>>>>Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "kirsten schneide"
>>>>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>>Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
>>>>>>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh William, I like your
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Attitude/s
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Love & Dress, Kirsten
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PS:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that
>>>>>>causes
>>>>>>many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and to
>>>>>focus
>>>>>>instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has
>>>>>>caused
>>>>>>many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long time
>>>>>>scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes of
>>>>>>behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to the
>>>>>>larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however, scientific
>>>>>>advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while
>>>>>>offering
>>>>>an
>>>>>>image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
>>>>>scientists
>>>>>>understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the ancient
>>>>>>Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This: symbol
>>>>>>:
>>>>>>represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size
>>>>>>scales,
>>>>>>with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for unification
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
>>>>>>magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
>>>>>Planck
>>>>>>scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics.
>>>>>>Yet
>>>>>>people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless
>>>>>>space
>>>>>and
>>>>>>uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
>>>>>>insignificance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gute Nacht!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
>>>>>>> >about the Deikmans' piece.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>William
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>info:
>>>>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows
>>>>>>Live
>>>>>>Spaces
>>>>>
>>>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>info:
>>>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>>Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>>>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>info:
>>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>>Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>info:
>>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
>>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>info:
>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>info:
>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows
>>>Live Spaces
>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
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>>>_______________________________________________
>>>info:
>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 14:54:49 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 15:48:47 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <OF32AF1AAC.F25D7637-ON852571F2.00434C08-852571F2.00438CB1@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F3545BBA2331879D33A26C7A8260@phx.gbl>
Dear _R ~
http://www.holzspielzeugkiste.de/shop/images/large/2023.gif
Love & Jaywalker, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:17:49 -0400
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Rodger __whose voice is speaking? _R
>.
>From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>.
>Good old Freud saw right away what they did with it: they simply became
>dependent children again,
>blindly following the inner voice of their parents, which now came from
>them under the hypnotic spell of the leader.
>.
>.
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 16:35:26 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Sep 24 17:29:23 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F3464789CD902DCC2C13046A8260@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F3464789CD902DCC2C13046A8260@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <037269D1-4A12-4124-88B7-6218CB69E2AE@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Well, I hope you paid up for the full text of this.
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.012.0465a
And do try to remember, any of us can look these up on Google
and see which are you and which are your grabs. That can't do
much for your ego, which it would seem to me along with most of
those you like to quote, the one bit of you, that is desperate not to
die. So why do you do it?
In the meantime, you might want to try and answer this. Do you
believe that there might be perfectly sane people who do not
fear death? And by this question, I don't mean those who avoid
the fear by believing in an afterlife of some sort.
Clearly you fear death and can think of no alternative to the pain
of such a loss. But, as you suggest, there is no alternative, then
what would you say might be, for you, or any of the rest of us, a
good reason to stay alive?
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 13:48, kirsten schneide wrote:
>
> Dear Animalfactor ~ if this fear were as constantly conscious,
>
> we should be unable to function normally. It must be properly
>
> repressed to keep us living with any modicum of
>
> comfort. We know very well that to repress means more than to
>
> put away and to forget that which was put away and the place
>
> where we put it. It means also to maintain a constant
>
> psychological effort to keep the lid on and inwardly never
>
> relax our watchfulness.
>
>
> Therefore in normal times we move about actually
>
> without ever believing in our own death, as if we fully
>
> believed in our own corporeal immortality. We are intent on
>
> mastering death....A man will say, of course, that he knows
>
> he will die some day, but he does not really care. He is
>
> having a good time with living, and he does not think about
>
> death and does not care to bother about it - but this is a
>
> purely intellectual, verbal admission. The affect of fear is
>
> repressed.
>
>
>
> In general this kind of fear is defensive, in the sense that
>
> it is a protection of our self-esteem, of our love and
>
> respect for ourselves. We tend to be afraid of any knowledge
>
> that could cause us to despise ourselves or to make us feel
>
> inferior, weak, worthless, evil, shameful. We protect
>
> ourselves and our ideal image of ourselves by repression and
>
> similar defenses, which are essentially techniques by which
>
> we avoid becoming conscious of unpleasant or dangerous
>
> truths..... at any 'rate': keep on wet & dreaming, dear.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Nailpolishremover, Kbot
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>>> Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth;
>>> and if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of
>>> nonbeing, they would have even less peace than we oblivious and
>>> driven madmen have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic
>>> revolutions touch the vast masses of this globe, the modern
>>> mechanical men in Russia, the near-billion sheeplike followers
>>> in China, the brutalized and ignorant populations of almost
>>> every continent?
>>
>>
>> I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
>> actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising
>> and plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for
>> some reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
>> masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died
>> of cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's
>> experience. I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature
>> are not fixed nor are they final. And if there is a limit, then
>> it is yet to be discovered.
>>
>> Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we
>> can communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can,
>> experience love without the necessity of it leading to
>> reproduction or orgasms or power. Simple things like this hold
>> out possibilities for something beyond what you might call our
>> biological necessities.
>>
>> You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own
>> fear of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism
>> seasoned lightly with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a
>> time when humans had no idea how to cook food and that was that.
>> They knew nothing of domesticating animals and were prey to the
>> bigger and faster predators. There was also a time when a
>> consensus of the experts agreed on ideas such as nobody can
>> travel faster than a mile a minute and that space travel was a
>> physical impossibility. They also agreed that, before Einstein
>> came along that physics was finished. pretty well all wrapped up.
>> Nobody should be advised to become a physicist because there was
>> nothing left to learn. And there was also a time when people
>> with psychological disorders ended up in mad houses that served
>> mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could entertain themselves
>> laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that to presuppose the
>> sort of limitation that you seem to take as given insures that
>> such limitation will prove to be what you think it is, at least
>> for you
>>
>> So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
>> posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own
>> fear of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that
>> I am wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here,
>> I know, who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that
>> their meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened,
>> maybe you ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
>>
>> don
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft
> LifeCams http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/
> 01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/
> default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Sep 23 16:36:39 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Sep 24 17:30:41 2006
Subject: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060924100003.84A3A2307A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFF19186B7.B175BCE1-ON852571F2.004434B3-852571F2.005042BA@dialogos.com>
Rodger__I think pessimism/ optimism are often motivated by fear and upheld
by arrangements of assumption. Whenever assumptions are tested they soon
crumble. To then continue as a pessimist or optimist becomes an act of
blind faith, desperation, and possibly intuition.
An alternative is neither optimistic, pessimistic, or a rationalized
middle-ground. The alternative emerges beyond knowledge/ assumption where
one gains an awareness of NOT KNOWING -- a reference point without
assumption.
That level of awareness of NOT KNOWING --isnt mental theorizing about
unknown things-- the awareness opens the mind to a reality that is much
more than what it seems through our assumptions.
People imagine they would be lost in a chaos, without assumption as
foundation for reality. But assumption & knowledge are the toys. There is a
whole new order and intelligence to be found through openness-of-mind.
Dialogue is one of the tools available for opening our awareness of the
mind. Sometimes, for some people the process is a pandora-box, for others
it is an inspiration. Often the difference is connected to idealizations of
liberty being confused for freedom._R
.
.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:22:44 +0200
From: "william" <w@david-bohm.net>
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
Are there any answers? Can anybody tell us, lead us? Obviously not; we are
the pioneers.
A pioneer has no leader, doesn't know what he is doing; he is just doing
it.
A pioneer doesn't know where he is going to; he is just going.
So, let's go.... and keep in touch.
william
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From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Sat Sep 23 17:15:39 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Sun Sep 24 18:09:35 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <F8532FE1-D62D-4519-96C5-69FB7A06C0F4@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20060923151540.43602.qmail@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Don - How do following facts fit in your picture (imagination?)? Respectively: How do you fit them?
The Past century was the most lethal in human history: Over 200 million people were killed in 250 wars and genocidal onslaughts, more people than were killed in warfare in the past two thousand years.
Which (historical) fact/s do you base your "We-have-a-choice" on?
Regards --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 22 Sep 2006, at 14:37, kirsten schneide wrote:
> Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and
> if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing,
> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch
> the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia,
> the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and
> ignorant populations of almost every continent?
I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and
plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some
reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of
cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's experience.
I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature are not fixed nor
are they final. And if there is a limit, then it is yet to be
discovered.
Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms
or power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for
something beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear
of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly
with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had
no idea how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of
domesticating animals and were prey to the bigger and faster
predators. There was also a time when a consensus of the experts
agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel faster than a mile a
minute and that space travel was a physical impossibility. They also
agreed that, before Einstein came along that physics was finished.
pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised to become a
physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there was also
a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could
entertain themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that
to presuppose the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given
insures that such limitation will prove to be what you think it is,
at least for you
So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear
of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am
wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know,
who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that their
meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you
ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
don
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sat Sep 23 17:20:00 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Sep 24 18:13:59 2006
Subject: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <OFF19186B7.B175BCE1-ON852571F2.004434B3-852571F2.005042BA@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C13AACC0.72CF%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
I think I experienced something like this a few days ago in a class I am
taking using Byron Katie?s work on business issues. The belief came up for
examination that choice is possible. I had not realized how much I had
invested in that belief. To see that AS a belief (neither accepting nor
rejecting it ? the reverse of that is also a belief) was a little
disorienting, but also liberating. I?m thinking this is what ?suspension?
is about. It?s pretty exciting to get beyond theory and and actually do it.
Lynne
On 9/23/06 8:36 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger__I think pessimism/ optimism are often motivated by fear and upheld by
> arrangements of assumption. Whenever assumptions are tested they soon crumble.
> To then continue as a pessimist or optimist becomes an act of blind faith,
> desperation, and possibly intuition.
>
> An alternative is neither optimistic, pessimistic, or a rationalized
> middle-ground. The alternative emerges beyond knowledge/ assumption where one
> gains an awareness of NOT KNOWING -- a reference point without assumption.
>
> That level of awareness of NOT KNOWING --isnt mental theorizing about unknown
> things-- the awareness opens the mind to a reality that is much more than
> what it seems through our assumptions.
>
> People imagine they would be lost in a chaos, without assumption as foundation
> for reality. But assumption & knowledge are the toys. There is a whole new
> order and intelligence to be found through openness-of-mind.
>
> Dialogue is one of the tools available for opening our awareness of the mind.
> Sometimes, for some people the process is a pandora-box, for others it is an
> inspiration. Often the difference is connected to idealizations of liberty
> being confused for freedom._R
> .
> .
> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:22:44 +0200
> From: "william" <w@david-bohm.net>
> Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> Are there any answers? Can anybody tell us, lead us? Obviously not; we are the
> pioneers.
> A pioneer has no leader, doesn't know what he is doing; he is just doing it.
> A pioneer doesn't know where he is going to; he is just going.
> So, let's go.... and keep in touch.
>
> william
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From DStulberg at msw-law.com Sat Sep 23 17:31:20 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Sun Sep 24 18:24:49 2006
Subject: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551ACF@msw2k.msw.local>
I have struggled with choice is possible for years. I have disagreed
with people forever who say she had a choice when I tried to envision
what it was like when the person made the choice. It isn't either or.
Our actions or thoughts are often limited in ways out of our control.
Yet they are often under are control if we become aware--but often being
aware they still aren't. Crazy aren't I. D.
________________________________
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Lynne Tolk
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:20 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
I think I experienced something like this a few days ago in a class I am
taking using Byron Katie's work on business issues. The belief came up
for examination that choice is possible. I had not realized how much I
had invested in that belief. To see that AS a belief (neither accepting
nor rejecting it - the reverse of that is also a belief) was a little
disorienting, but also liberating. I'm thinking this is what
"suspension" is about. It's pretty exciting to get beyond theory and
and actually do it.
Lynne
On 9/23/06 8:36 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
<Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger__I think pessimism/ optimism are often motivated by fear
and upheld by arrangements of assumption. Whenever assumptions are
tested they soon crumble. To then continue as a pessimist or optimist
becomes an act of blind faith, desperation, and possibly intuition.
An alternative is neither optimistic, pessimistic, or a
rationalized middle-ground. The alternative emerges beyond knowledge/
assumption where one gains an awareness of NOT KNOWING -- a reference
point without assumption.
That level of awareness of NOT KNOWING --isnt mental theorizing
about unknown things-- the awareness opens the mind to a reality that
is much more than what it seems through our assumptions.
People imagine they would be lost in a chaos, without assumption
as foundation for reality. But assumption & knowledge are the toys.
There is a whole new order and intelligence to be found through
openness-of-mind.
Dialogue is one of the tools available for opening our awareness
of the mind. Sometimes, for some people the process is a pandora-box,
for others it is an inspiration. Often the difference is connected to
idealizations of liberty being confused for freedom._R
.
.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:22:44 +0200
From: "william" <w@david-bohm.net>
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
Are there any answers? Can anybody tell us, lead us? Obviously
not; we are the pioneers.
A pioneer has no leader, doesn't know what he is doing; he is
just doing it.
A pioneer doesn't know where he is going to; he is just going.
So, let's go.... and keep in touch.
william
________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
-------------- next part --------------
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From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Sat Sep 23 17:36:11 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Sun Sep 24 18:30:06 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F277F26CBA3C50E9E9B6BF7A8210@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060923153611.95507.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Kristen - I am currently looking at Freud some. You might
appreciate this one:
Wer Wissenschaft und Kunst besitzt, hat auch Religion; Wer
jene beide nicht besitzt, der habe Religion!
[He who possesses science and art also has religion; but he
who possesses neither of those two, let him have religion! ?
Goethe, Zahme Xenien IX]
This saying on the one hand draws an antithesis between
religion and the two highest achievements of man, and on the
other, asserts that, as regards their value in life, those
achievements and religion can represent or replace each
other. If we also set out to deprive the common man, [who has
neither science nor art] of his religion, we shall clearly
not have the poet's authority on our side. We will choose a
particular path to bring us nearer an appreciation of his
words. Life, as we find it, is too hard for us; it brings us
too many pains, disappointments and impossible tasks. In
order to bear it we cannot dispense with palliative measures.
'We cannot do without auxiliary constructions' as Theodor
Fontane tells us. There are perhaps three such measures:
powerful deflections, which cause us to make light of our
misery; substitutive satisfactions, which diminish it; and
intoxicating substances, which make us insensitive to it.
Something of the kind is indispensable. Voltaire has
deflections in mind when he ends Candide with the advice to
cultivate one's garden; and scientific activity is a
deflection of this kind, too. The substitutive satisfactions,
as offered by art, are illusions in contrast with reality,
but they are none the less psychically effective, thanks to
the role which phantasy has assumed in mental life. The
intoxicating substances influence our body and alter its
chemistry. It is no simple matter to see where religion has
its place in this series. We must look further afield.
The question of the purpose of human life has been
raised countless times; it has never yet received a
satisfactory answer and perhaps does not admit of one. Some
of those who have asked it have added that if it should turn
out that life has no purpose, it would lose all value for
them. But this threat alters nothing. It looks, on the
contrary, as though one had a right to dismiss the question,
for it seems to derive from the human presumptuousness, many
other manifestations of which are already familiar to us.
Nobody talks about the purpose of the life of animals,
unless, perhaps, it may be supposed to lie in being of
service to man. But this view is not tenable either, for
there are many animals of which man can make nothing, except
to describe, classify and study them; and innumerable species
of animals have escaped even this use, since they existed and
became extinct before man set eyes on them. Once again, only
religion can answer the question of the purpose of life. One
can hardly be wrong in concluding that the idea of life
having a purpose stands and falls with the religious system.
We will therefore turn to the less ambitious question of what
men themselves show by their behavior to be the purpose and
intention of their lives. What do they demand of life and
wish to achieve in it? The answer to this can hardly be in
doubt. They strive for happiness; they want to become happy
and to remain so. This endeavor has two sides, a positive and
a negative aim. It aims, on the one hand, at an absence of
pain and unpleasure, and, on the other, at the experiencing
of strong feelings of pleasure. In its narrower sense the
word 'happiness' only relates to the last. In conformity with
this dichotomy in his aims, man's activity develops in two
directions, according as it seeks to realize ? in the main,
or even exclusively ? the one or the other of these aims.
As we see, what decides the purpose of life is simply the
program of the pleasure principle. This principle dominates
the operation of the mental apparatus from the start. There
can be no doubt about its efficacy, and yet its program is at
loggerheads with the whole world, with the macrocosm as much
as with the microcosm. There is no possibility at all of its
being carried through; all the regulations of the universe
run counter to it. One feels inclined to say that the
intention that man should be 'happy' is not included in the
plan of 'Creation.' What we call happiness in the strictest
sense comes from the (preferable sudden) satisfaction of
needs which have been dammed up to a high degree, and it is
from its nature only possible as an episodic phenomenon. When
any situation that is desired by the pleasure principle is
prolonged, it only produces a feeling of mild contentment. We
are so made that we can derive intense enjoyment only from a
contrast and very little from a state of things. Thus our
possibilities of happiness are already restricted by our
constitution. Unhappiness is much less difficult to
experience. We are threatened with suffering from three
directions: from our own body, which is doomed to decay and
dissolution and which cannot even do without pain and anxiety
as warning signals; from the external world, which may rage
against us with overwhelming and merciless forces of
destruction; and finally from our relations to other men. The
suffering which comes from this last source is perhaps more
painful to us than any other. We tend to regard it as a kind
of gratuitous addition, although it cannot be any less
fatefully inevitable than the suffering which comes from
elsewhere.
It is no wonder if, under the pressure of these possibilities
of suffering, men are accustomed to moderate their claims to
happiness ? just as the pleasure principle itself, indeed,
under the influence of the external world, changed into the
more modest reality principle ?, if a man thinks himself
happy merely to have escaped unhappiness or to have survived
his suffering, and if in general the task of avoiding
suffering pushes that of obtaining pleasure into the
background. Reflection shows that the accomplishment of this
task can be attempted along very different paths; and all
these paths have been recommended by the various schools of
worldly wisdom and put into practice by men. An unrestricted
satisfaction of every need presents itself as the most
enticing method of conducting one's life, but it means
putting enjoyment before caution, and soon brings its own
punishment. The other methods, in which avoidance of
unpleasure is the main purpose, are differentiated according
to the source of unpleasure to which their attention is
chiefly turned. Some of these methods are extreme and some
moderate; some are one-sided and some attack the problem
simultaneously at several points. Against the suffering which
may come upon one from human relationships the readiest
safeguard is voluntary isolation, keeping oneself aloof from
other people. The happiness which can be achieved along this
path is, as we see, the happiness of quietness. Against the
dreaded external world one can only defend oneself by some
kind turning away from it, if one intends to solve the task
by oneself. There is, indeed, another and better path: that
of becoming a member of the human community, and, with the
help of a technique guided by science, going over to the
attack against nature and subjecting her to the human will.
Then one is working with all for the good of all. But the
most interesting methods of averting suffering are those
which seek to influence our own organism. In the last
analysis, all suffering is nothing else than sensation; it
only exists in so far as we feel it, and we only feel it in
consequence of certain ways in which our organism is
regulated. (From "Civilization and Discontent).
--- Zoe (Millionaire, eh?)
kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Zoe, yes, Reynold's. Why do animals (chat)group? Herding, for example.
Just watch here. "Risk dilution" of "predators'.... of that little cozy,
sleepy belief&system. Zoe, would you see this Bohm&Chat Group as such?
Belief, System? Early theorists developed ideas like 'mental contagion' and
'herd instinc', which became very popular. But as freud was quick to see,
these ideas never really did explain what men did with their judgment and
common sense when they got caught up in groups. Good old Freud saw right
away what they did with it: they simply became dependent children again,
blindly following the inner voice of their parents, which now came from them
under the hypnotic spell of the leader. A Belief/System is a leader, too,
dear Subscribers. TAS is a: "leader". Thus Subscribers abandoned their egos
to his, identified with his power, tried to function with him as an ideal.
Bohm/Dialog as crutch. Don't like "crutch/es"? try: Tit/s...
PS: Student;-? ....... I am the daughter of a millionaire.
Love & Nike, Kbot
>Kirsten - Thanks for that. Quite Interesting. Will look into that. By the
>way: Are you familiar with Craig Reynold's work (Boids)?
> 1, separation (avoid crowding neighbours)
> 2 , alignment (steer towards average heading of neighbours)
> 3 , cohesion (steer towards average position of neighbours)
> Somehow seems to resonate nicely with Solomon's work on TMT
> 1, to deny or belittle and devalue the importance third (second) party
>"Weltanschauung" (Hegel), but try
> 2, to controvert (To raise arguments against; voice opposition to) the
>ideas and opinions of others which may, as a consequence,
> 3, escalate into a conflict. Force. Violence. Elimination. You name it -
> What do you think? Are you a student, too? -- Zoe
>
>
>kirsten schneide wrote:
> Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
>going):
>Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf, how many decades
>have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog? And? Any Lasers in
>sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At any 'rate', Zoe, this 'all'
>brings up the great problem raised by the therapeutic revolution, namely:::
>" So What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of really liberated
>people,
>at their best, we can't imagine that the world will be any pleasanter or
>less tragic a place. It may even be worse in still unknown ways. As Tillich
>warned us, and Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit here&there with T, New
>Being, under the conditions and limitations of existence, will only bring
>into play new and sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful
>disharmonies?a "more intense demonism." Reality is remorseless because gods
>do not walk upon the earth; and if men could become noble repositories of
>great gulfs of nonbeing, they would have even less peace than we oblivious
>and driven madmen have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic
>revolutions touch the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men
>in Russia, the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized
>and
>ignorant populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the
>liberation atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of
>small doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town,
>one
>is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the rest
>of
>the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this therapeutic
>megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are not to be perfect
>fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade away because one has
>analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well knew, or because one can
>make
>love with tenderness, as so many now believe. Forget it. In this sense
>again
>it is Freud's somber pessimism, especially of his later writings such as
>"Civilization and Its Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us
>human
>animals are doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and
>demonic world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this
>ship
>of fools.
>
>
>
>
>Love & Nuts, Kirsten
>
>
>
> >From: Zoe Chu
> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
>cherish!
> >Glad M told me about this list.
> >
> > The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming stimuli
> >from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains might shut out
>this
> >same information through a process called "latent inhibition" - defined
>as
> >an animal's unconscious capacity to ignore stimuli that experience has
> >shown are irrelevant to its needs. Through psychological testing, the
> >researchers showed that creative individuals are much more likely to have
> >low levels of latent inhibition.
> >
> > "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the extra
> >information constantly streaming in from the environment," says Jordan
> >Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and then forgets about
> >it, even though that object is much more complex and interesting than he
>or
> >she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, is always open to new
> >possibilities."
> >
> > Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli
> >with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it might also
> >contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with high IQ.
> >
> > The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when
> >combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the capacity to
> >think about many things at once - but negative otherwise. Peterson
>states:
> >"If you are open to new information, new ideas, you better be able to
> >intelligently and carefully edit and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only
>two
> >or three are likely to be good. You have to be able to discriminate or
> >you'll get swamped."
> >
> > "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and creativity
> >seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low levels of latent
> >inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought might predispose to
> >mental illness under some conditions and to creative accomplishment under
> >others."
> >
> > For example, during the early stages of diseases such as schizophrenia,
> >which are often accompanied by feelings of deep insight, mystical
>knowledge
> >and religious experience, chemical changes take place in which latent
> >inhibition disappears.
> >
> > "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says Peterson.
> >"It appears that we have not only identified one of the biological bases
>of
> >creativity but have moved towards cracking an age-old mystery: the
> >relationship between genius, madness and the doors of perception."
> >
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by
> >variability
> >in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
> >activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused
> >than
> >extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts
>are
> >more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour
>is
> >such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely,
>the
> >extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~ as
> >predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
> >engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
> >--------------------------
> >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Hi Kristen -
> > >
> > > Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you make
> > >of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
> > >
> > > Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid each
> > >other while operating in a group raises the issue of self-organization,
> >and
> > >as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this
> >area.
> > >In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana,
>once
> >in
> > >the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant
> >with
> > >respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
> > >homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
> > >conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to
>survive.
> > >Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is the
> > >larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and
>those
> > >involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent devices
> > >cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays
>sufficient
> > >intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
> > >ultimately one day be forced to decide
> > > between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but correct)
> >and
> > >our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
> > >perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
> > >anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
>because
> >it
> > >could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it may
>be
> > >asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks
> >being
> > >the major operative.
> > >
> > > Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not confined
>to
> > >device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
> > >Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated international
> > >battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not
>only
> > >all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated globally
> >in
> > >a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
> > >assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to be
> > >used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
> > >situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in these
> > >synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if
>allowed
> > >to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the character
> >of
> > >the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a
>starting
> > >point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to be
> > >capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
> > > Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said
> >that
> > >it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible, rather
> >than
> > >the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given us
> > >ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of thinking
> > >about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
> > >another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
> > >
> > > -- Zoe
> > >
> > >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear habituated Susbcribers
> > >
> > >The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961 Master?s
> > >thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
> > >shift", meaning that a group?s decisions are riskier than the average
>of
> > >the individual decisions of members before the group met. The discovery
> >of
> > >the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive,
> >especially
> > >since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other
> >researchers
> > >suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did groups,
> > >leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that would
> > >conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
> > >counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research around
> >the
> > >risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
>exception
> >to
> > >the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it
>had
> > >become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes
> >that
> > >became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to term
> >the
> > >overall phenomenon "group polarization".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
> > >--------------------------
> > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > > >From: "kirsten schneide"
> > > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
> > > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Oh William, I like your
> > > >
> > > >Attitude/s
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Love & Dress, Kirsten
> > > >
> > > >PS:
> > > >
> > > >There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that
> >causes
> > > >many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and to
> > >focus
> > > >instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
> > > >
> > > >The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has
> >caused
> > > >many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long time
> > > >scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
> > > >
> > > >In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes of
> > > >behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who
> >they
> > > >are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to
>the
> > > >larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however, scientific
> > > >advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while
> >offering
> > >an
> > > >image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
> > > >
> > > >Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
> > >scientists
> > > >understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the
>ancient
> > > >Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This:
>symbol
> >:
> > > >represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size
> >scales,
> > > >with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for
>unification
> >of
> > > >theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
> > > >
> > > >The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
> > > >magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
> > >Planck
> > > >scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics.
>Yet
> > > >people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless
>space
> > >and
> > > >uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
> > > >insignificance.
> > > >
> > > >Gute Nacht!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
> > > >> >about the Deikmans' piece.
> > > >>
> > > >>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
> > > >>
> > > >>William
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>info:
> > > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >>
> > > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >_________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
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> >
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 19:29:15 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Sep 24 20:23:15 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060923151540.43602.qmail@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20060923151540.43602.qmail@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <525DD3E4-DE9B-47A7-8F9B-388062444702@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
For one thing, there is the growth of human population which is now
well in excess of 6 billion people. I suppose you can work out the
percentages. My comments implied that at least some parts of the
world are more peaceful now than ever before. Also, your figures are
somewhat questionable. Who did the counting? And especially, who did
the counting of all the people killed in the past? These are the sort
of extrapolations that make good headlines but that's all. I don't
mean to deny we have had pretty violent times but the process of
change has to start somewhere. Of course, these day, killing is far
more efficient, so one smallish war can account for many more
casualties than some ancient big ones.
As recently as when I was a kid, during WWII, war was still
considered something glorious. To be a war hero was something very
positive, at least in the Anglo American cultural setting. That is
much less the case these days.
I can only say that if things have begun to change in some places
it may be possible for them to change in others. For
instance,Kirsten's vast masses of modern mechanical men in Russia
and the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, no longer reads as
true as it might have a couple of decades ago.
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 16:15, Zoe Chu wrote:
> Don - How do following facts fit in your picture (imagination?)?
> Respectively: How do you fit them?
>
> The Past century was the most lethal in human history: Over 200
> million people were killed in 250 wars and genocidal onslaughts,
> more people than were killed in warfare in the past two thousand
> years.
>
> Which (historical) fact/s do you base your "We-have-a-choice" on?
>
> Regards --- Zoe
>
>
> Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 22 Sep 2006, at 14:37, kirsten schneide wrote:
>
> > Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and
> > if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing,
> > they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> > have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch
> > the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia,
> > the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and
> > ignorant populations of almost every continent?
>
>
> I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
> actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and
> plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some
> reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
> masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of
> cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's experience.
> I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature are not fixed nor
> are they final. And if there is a limit, then it is yet to be
> discovered.
>
> Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
> communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
> love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms
> or power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for
> something beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
>
> You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear
> of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly
> with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had
> no idea how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of
> domesticating animals and were prey to the bigger and faster
> predators. There was also a time when a consensus of the experts
> agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel faster than a mile a
> minute and that space travel was a physical impossibility. They also
> agreed that, before Einstein came along that physics was finished.
> pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised to become a
> physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there was also
> a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
> houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could
> entertain themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that
> to presuppose the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given
> insures that such limitation will prove to be what you think it is,
> at least for you
>
> So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
> posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear
> of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am
> wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know,
> who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that their
> meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you
> ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
>
> don
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 23 19:48:08 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Sep 24 20:42:06 2006
Subject: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <C13AACC0.72CF%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
References: <C13AACC0.72CF%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <0633EC99-121F-4099-8CD6-DEACCB26A3FC@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Interesting insight, This might sound like confusion, but it needn't
be. It comes back to the kind of awareness that recognises that "in
this moment i have a choice." But that's it. There can be no
conclusion that this will always be the case. Suspension in this
sense has a lot to do with how we value uncertainty.
And since this still appear to be part of the "risky" thread it
suddenly reminds me that the fear of death has a lot to do with the
fear of uncertainty.
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 16:20, Lynne Tolk wrote:
> I think I experienced something like this a few days ago in a class
> I am taking using Byron Katie?s work on business issues. The
> belief came up for examination that choice is possible. I had not
> realized how much I had invested in that belief. To see that AS a
> belief (neither accepting nor rejecting it ? the reverse of that is
> also a belief) was a little disorienting, but also liberating. I?m
> thinking this is what ?suspension? is about. It?s pretty exciting
> to get beyond theory and and actually do it.
>
> Lynne
> On 9/23/06 8:36 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>
>> Rodger__I think pessimism/ optimism are often motivated by fear
>> and upheld by arrangements of assumption. Whenever assumptions are
>> tested they soon crumble. To then continue as a pessimist or
>> optimist becomes an act of blind faith, desperation, and possibly
>> intuition.
>>
>> An alternative is neither optimistic, pessimistic, or a
>> rationalized middle-ground. The alternative emerges beyond
>> knowledge/ assumption where one gains an awareness of NOT KNOWING
>> -- a reference point without assumption.
>>
>> That level of awareness of NOT KNOWING --isnt mental theorizing
>> about unknown things-- the awareness opens the mind to a reality
>> that is much more than what it seems through our assumptions.
>>
>> People imagine they would be lost in a chaos, without assumption
>> as foundation for reality. But assumption & knowledge are the
>> toys. There is a whole new order and intelligence to be found
>> through openness-of-mind.
>>
>> Dialogue is one of the tools available for opening our awareness
>> of the mind. Sometimes, for some people the process is a pandora-
>> box, for others it is an inspiration. Often the difference is
>> connected to idealizations of liberty being confused for freedom._R
>> .
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 20:37:41 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 21:31:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <BAY107-F291CBF62D968FA12B45123A8260@phx.gbl>
Dear Fearofdeathovercomerbeliever Donf ~
A - Gogglesleuthing: I would say and I do say that this ("activity") says
more about you than me ;-! .... [PS: Names mean zip to me. The thinkg that
matters, if at all, is not who says it, but what is said, dear
Bohm-Subscriber]
B - "Rest": It is a bit shocking (tickling) that you (still) after decades
of sleuthing "the" truths still don't seem to have the slightes clue as to
what makes this world/system {tas}: tic-tic-tic ..... but then, who know,
there might still be a bit time left on y'our meter to ........ figure it
...... out.
Re&Fresher: So What? Even with
numerous groups of really liberated people, at their best, we
can't imagine that the world will be any pleasanter or less
tragic a place. It may even be worse in still unknown ways.
As Tillich warned us, New Being, under the conditions and
limitations of existence, will only bring into play new and
sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful
disharmonies—a "more intense demonism." Reality is
remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if
men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of
nonbeing, they would have even less peace than we oblivious
and driven madmen have today. Besides, can any ideal of
therapeutic revolutions touch the vast masses of this globe,
the modern mechanical men in Russia, the near-billion
sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the
liberation atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the
intoxications of small doses of unconstriction in a
therapeutic group in one's home town, one is living in a
hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the rest of
the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is
this therapeutic megalomania that must quickly been seen
through if we are not to be perfect fools. The empirical
facts of the world will not fade away because one has
analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well knew, or
because one can make love with tenderness, as so many now
believe. Forget it.
Love & Coin(flipping), Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:35:26 +0100
>
>Well, I hope you paid up for the full text of this.
>
>http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.012.0465a
>
>And do try to remember, any of us can look these up on Google
>and see which are you and which are your grabs. That can't do
>much for your ego, which it would seem to me along with most of
>those you like to quote, the one bit of you, that is desperate not to
>die. So why do you do it?
>
>In the meantime, you might want to try and answer this. Do you
>believe that there might be perfectly sane people who do not
>fear death? And by this question, I don't mean those who avoid
>the fear by believing in an afterlife of some sort.
>
>Clearly you fear death and can think of no alternative to the pain
>of such a loss. But, as you suggest, there is no alternative, then
> what would you say might be, for you, or any of the rest of us, a
>good reason to stay alive?
>
>don
>
>
>
>
>
>On 23 Sep 2006, at 13:48, kirsten schneide wrote:
>>
>>Dear Animalfactor ~ if this fear were as constantly conscious,
>>
>>we should be unable to function normally. It must be properly
>>
>>repressed to keep us living with any modicum of
>>
>>comfort. We know very well that to repress means more than to
>>
>>put away and to forget that which was put away and the place
>>
>>where we put it. It means also to maintain a constant
>>
>>psychological effort to keep the lid on and inwardly never
>>
>>relax our watchfulness.
>>
>>
>>Therefore in normal times we move about actually
>>
>>without ever believing in our own death, as if we fully
>>
>>believed in our own corporeal immortality. We are intent on
>>
>>mastering death....A man will say, of course, that he knows
>>
>>he will die some day, but he does not really care. He is
>>
>>having a good time with living, and he does not think about
>>
>>death and does not care to bother about it - but this is a
>>
>>purely intellectual, verbal admission. The affect of fear is
>>
>>repressed.
>>
>>
>>
>>In general this kind of fear is defensive, in the sense that
>>
>>it is a protection of our self-esteem, of our love and
>>
>>respect for ourselves. We tend to be afraid of any knowledge
>>
>>that could cause us to despise ourselves or to make us feel
>>
>>inferior, weak, worthless, evil, shameful. We protect
>>
>>ourselves and our ideal image of ourselves by repression and
>>
>>similar defenses, which are essentially techniques by which
>>
>>we avoid becoming conscious of unpleasant or dangerous
>>
>>truths..... at any 'rate': keep on wet & dreaming, dear.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Love & Nailpolishremover, Kbot
>>
>>--------------------------
>>Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>
>>
>>>>Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and if
>>>>men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing, they
>>>>would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen have
>>>>today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch the
>>>>vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia, the
>>>>near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and ignorant
>>>>populations of almost every continent?
>>>
>>>
>>>I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and actually
>>>doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and plagiarising
>>>his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some reason had a very
>>>rough time of it, even after writing his masterpiece, The Denial of
>>>Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of cancer at a very young age.
>>>Pity. But this was one man's experience. I figure we have a choice. The
>>>laws of human nature are not fixed nor are they final. And if there is
>>>a limit, then it is yet to be discovered.
>>>
>>>Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
>>>communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
>>>love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms or
>>>power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for something
>>>beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
>>>
>>>You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear of
>>>death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly with
>>>a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had no idea
>>>how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of domesticating
>>>animals and were prey to the bigger and faster predators. There was
>>>also a time when a consensus of the experts agreed on ideas such as
>>>nobody can travel faster than a mile a minute and that space travel
>>>was a physical impossibility. They also agreed that, before Einstein
>>>came along that physics was finished. pretty well all wrapped up.
>>>Nobody should be advised to become a physicist because there was
>>>nothing left to learn. And there was also a time when people with
>>>psychological disorders ended up in mad houses that served mainly as
>>>places where the bourgeoisie could entertain themselves laughing at the
>>>loonies.. My point here is that to presuppose the sort of limitation
>>>that you seem to take as given insures that such limitation will prove
>>>to be what you think it is, at least for you
>>>
>>>So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic posts
>>>of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear of
>>>death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am wrong."
>>>But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know, who have
>>>overcome there fear of death, and who know that their meaning does not
>>>die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you ought to gather up
>>>your courage and ask for help.
>>>
>>>don
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>info:
>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/
>>01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/
>>default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 20:46:45 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Sep 24 21:40:51 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060923153611.95507.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F361B2928D531AFC275C612A8260@phx.gbl>
Dear Zoe, yes, old couch-potato Sigmund 's a good one. Thanks. Will look
into it later when I get home. Got him sitting on my (coffee)table, well,
ok, lets be fair: Dustyshelves. BTW: it's Kirsten, not Kristen, but I still
send you Love & Beignets (talking about "dusty";-) ~ ~ ~ Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Kristen - I am currently looking at Freud some. You might
> appreciate this one:
>
>Wer Wissenschaft und Kunst besitzt, hat auch Religion; Wer
> jene beide nicht besitzt, der habe Religion!
>
> [He who possesses science and art also has religion; but he
> who possesses neither of those two, let him have religion! —
> Goethe, Zahme Xenien IX]
>
> This saying on the one hand draws an antithesis between
> religion and the two highest achievements of man, and on the
> other, asserts that, as regards their value in life, those
> achievements and religion can represent or replace each
> other. If we also set out to deprive the common man, [who has
> neither science nor art] of his religion, we shall clearly
> not have the poet's authority on our side. We will choose a
> particular path to bring us nearer an appreciation of his
> words. Life, as we find it, is too hard for us; it brings us
> too many pains, disappointments and impossible tasks. In
> order to bear it we cannot dispense with palliative measures.
> 'We cannot do without auxiliary constructions' as Theodor
> Fontane tells us. There are perhaps three such measures:
> powerful deflections, which cause us to make light of our
> misery; substitutive satisfactions, which diminish it; and
> intoxicating substances, which make us insensitive to it.
> Something of the kind is indispensable. Voltaire has
> deflections in mind when he ends Candide with the advice to
> cultivate one's garden; and scientific activity is a
> deflection of this kind, too. The substitutive satisfactions,
> as offered by art, are illusions in contrast with reality,
> but they are none the less psychically effective, thanks to
> the role which phantasy has assumed in mental life. The
> intoxicating substances influence our body and alter its
> chemistry. It is no simple matter to see where religion has
> its place in this series. We must look further afield.
>
> The question of the purpose of human life has been
> raised countless times; it has never yet received a
> satisfactory answer and perhaps does not admit of one. Some
> of those who have asked it have added that if it should turn
> out that life has no purpose, it would lose all value for
> them. But this threat alters nothing. It looks, on the
> contrary, as though one had a right to dismiss the question,
> for it seems to derive from the human presumptuousness, many
> other manifestations of which are already familiar to us.
> Nobody talks about the purpose of the life of animals,
> unless, perhaps, it may be supposed to lie in being of
> service to man. But this view is not tenable either, for
> there are many animals of which man can make nothing, except
> to describe, classify and study them; and innumerable species
> of animals have escaped even this use, since they existed and
> became extinct before man set eyes on them. Once again, only
> religion can answer the question of the purpose of life. One
> can hardly be wrong in concluding that the idea of life
> having a purpose stands and falls with the religious system.
>We will therefore turn to the less ambitious question of what
> men themselves show by their behavior to be the purpose and
> intention of their lives. What do they demand of life and
> wish to achieve in it? The answer to this can hardly be in
> doubt. They strive for happiness; they want to become happy
> and to remain so. This endeavor has two sides, a positive and
> a negative aim. It aims, on the one hand, at an absence of
> pain and unpleasure, and, on the other, at the experiencing
> of strong feelings of pleasure. In its narrower sense the
> word 'happiness' only relates to the last. In conformity with
> this dichotomy in his aims, man's activity develops in two
> directions, according as it seeks to realize — in the main,
> or even exclusively — the one or the other of these aims.
>
> As we see, what decides the purpose of life is simply the
> program of the pleasure principle. This principle dominates
> the operation of the mental apparatus from the start. There
> can be no doubt about its efficacy, and yet its program is at
> loggerheads with the whole world, with the macrocosm as much
> as with the microcosm. There is no possibility at all of its
> being carried through; all the regulations of the universe
> run counter to it. One feels inclined to say that the
> intention that man should be 'happy' is not included in the
> plan of 'Creation.' What we call happiness in the strictest
> sense comes from the (preferable sudden) satisfaction of
> needs which have been dammed up to a high degree, and it is
> from its nature only possible as an episodic phenomenon. When
> any situation that is desired by the pleasure principle is
> prolonged, it only produces a feeling of mild contentment. We
> are so made that we can derive intense enjoyment only from a
> contrast and very little from a state of things. Thus our
> possibilities of happiness are already restricted by our
> constitution. Unhappiness is much less difficult to
> experience. We are threatened with suffering from three
> directions: from our own body, which is doomed to decay and
> dissolution and which cannot even do without pain and anxiety
> as warning signals; from the external world, which may rage
> against us with overwhelming and merciless forces of
> destruction; and finally from our relations to other men. The
> suffering which comes from this last source is perhaps more
> painful to us than any other. We tend to regard it as a kind
> of gratuitous addition, although it cannot be any less
> fatefully inevitable than the suffering which comes from
> elsewhere.
>
> It is no wonder if, under the pressure of these possibilities
> of suffering, men are accustomed to moderate their claims to
> happiness — just as the pleasure principle itself, indeed,
> under the influence of the external world, changed into the
> more modest reality principle —, if a man thinks himself
> happy merely to have escaped unhappiness or to have survived
> his suffering, and if in general the task of avoiding
> suffering pushes that of obtaining pleasure into the
> background. Reflection shows that the accomplishment of this
> task can be attempted along very different paths; and all
> these paths have been recommended by the various schools of
> worldly wisdom and put into practice by men. An unrestricted
> satisfaction of every need presents itself as the most
> enticing method of conducting one's life, but it means
> putting enjoyment before caution, and soon brings its own
> punishment. The other methods, in which avoidance of
> unpleasure is the main purpose, are differentiated according
> to the source of unpleasure to which their attention is
> chiefly turned. Some of these methods are extreme and some
> moderate; some are one-sided and some attack the problem
> simultaneously at several points. Against the suffering which
> may come upon one from human relationships the readiest
> safeguard is voluntary isolation, keeping oneself aloof from
> other people. The happiness which can be achieved along this
> path is, as we see, the happiness of quietness. Against the
> dreaded external world one can only defend oneself by some
> kind turning away from it, if one intends to solve the task
> by oneself. There is, indeed, another and better path: that
> of becoming a member of the human community, and, with the
> help of a technique guided by science, going over to the
> attack against nature and subjecting her to the human will.
> Then one is working with all for the good of all. But the
> most interesting methods of averting suffering are those
> which seek to influence our own organism. In the last
> analysis, all suffering is nothing else than sensation; it
> only exists in so far as we feel it, and we only feel it in
> consequence of certain ways in which our organism is
> regulated. (From "Civilization and Discontent).
>
> --- Zoe (Millionaire, eh?)
>
>kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Dear Zoe, yes, Reynold's. Why do animals (chat)group? Herding, for example.
>Just watch here. "Risk dilution" of "predators'.... of that little cozy,
>sleepy belief&system. Zoe, would you see this Bohm&Chat Group as such?
>Belief, System? Early theorists developed ideas like 'mental contagion' and
>'herd instinc', which became very popular. But as freud was quick to see,
>these ideas never really did explain what men did with their judgment and
>common sense when they got caught up in groups. Good old Freud saw right
>away what they did with it: they simply became dependent children again,
>blindly following the inner voice of their parents, which now came from
>them
>under the hypnotic spell of the leader. A Belief/System is a leader, too,
>dear Subscribers. TAS is a: "leader". Thus Subscribers abandoned their egos
>to his, identified with his power, tried to function with him as an ideal.
>Bohm/Dialog as crutch. Don't like "crutch/es"? try: Tit/s...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>PS: Student;-? ....... I am the daughter of a millionaire.
>
>
>
>
>
>Love & Nike, Kbot
>
> >Kirsten - Thanks for that. Quite Interesting. Will look into that. By the
> >way: Are you familiar with Craig Reynold's work (Boids)?
> > 1, separation (avoid crowding neighbours)
> > 2 , alignment (steer towards average heading of neighbours)
> > 3 , cohesion (steer towards average position of neighbours)
> > Somehow seems to resonate nicely with Solomon's work on TMT
> > 1, to deny or belittle and devalue the importance third (second) party
> >"Weltanschauung" (Hegel), but try
> > 2, to controvert (To raise arguments against; voice opposition to) the
> >ideas and opinions of others which may, as a consequence,
> > 3, escalate into a conflict. Force. Violence. Elimination. You name it -
> > What do you think? Are you a student, too? -- Zoe
> >
> >
> >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > Dear Zoe, did you read how Donf keeps drooling about his (Chat group
> >going):
> >Laser-thinkg;-? It all ways cracks me up. Mon Cheri Donf, how many
>decades
> >have you taken care of (by) now by 'doing' (Bohm)Dialog? And? Any Lasers
>in
> >sight? In-sights?? Any "fresh" stuff? O Boy! At any 'rate', Zoe, this
>'all'
> >brings up the great problem raised by the therapeutic revolution,
>namely:::
> >" So What?".... Even with numerous (chat) groups of really liberated
> >people,
> >at their best, we can't imagine that the world will be any pleasanter or
> >less tragic a place. It may even be worse in still unknown ways. As
>Tillich
> >warned us, and Donl likes to make-up himselves a bit here&there with T,
>New
> >Being, under the conditions and limitations of existence, will only bring
> >into play new and sharper paradoxes, new tensions, and more painful
> >disharmonies—a "more intense demonism." Reality is remorseless because
>gods
> >do not walk upon the earth; and if men could become noble repositories of
> >great gulfs of nonbeing, they would have even less peace than we
>oblivious
> >and driven madmen have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic
> >revolutions touch the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical
>men
> >in Russia, the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized
> >and
> >ignorant populations of almost every continent? When one lives in the
> >liberation atmosphere of Berkeley, California, or in the intoxications of
> >small doses of unconstriction in a therapeutic group in one's home town,
> >one
> >is living in a hothouse atmosphere that shuts out the reality of the rest
> >of
> >the planet, the way things really are in this world. It is this
>therapeutic
> >megalomania that must quickly been seen through if we are not to be
>perfect
> >fools. The empirical facts of the world will not fade away because one
>has
> >analyzed his Oedipus complex, as Freud so well knew, or because one can
> >make
> >love with tenderness, as so many now believe. Forget it. In this sense
> >again
> >it is Freud's somber pessimism, especially of his later writings such as
> >"Civilization and Its Discontents", that keeps him so contemporary. Us
> >human
> >animals are doomed, doomed to live&die in an overwhelmingly tragic and
> >demonic world. Enough said, it's good to have you on board .... of this
> >ship
> >of fools.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Love & Nuts, Kirsten
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Zoe Chu
> > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Kirsten - You seem to be a real nut --- just the kind of humans I
> >cherish!
> > >Glad M told me about this list.
> > >
> > > The brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming
>stimuli
> > >from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains might shut out
> >this
> > >same information through a process called "latent inhibition" - defined
> >as
> > >an animal's unconscious capacity to ignore stimuli that experience has
> > >shown are irrelevant to its needs. Through psychological testing, the
> > >researchers showed that creative individuals are much more likely to
>have
> > >low levels of latent inhibition.
> > >
> > > "This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the extra
> > >information constantly streaming in from the environment," says Jordan
> > >Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and then forgets
>about
> > >it, even though that object is much more complex and interesting than
>he
> >or
> > >she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, is always open to new
> > >possibilities."
> > >
> > > Previously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli
> > >with psychosis. However, researchers hypothesized that it might also
> > >contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with high IQ.
> > >
> > > The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when
> > >combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the capacity
>to
> > >think about many things at once - but negative otherwise. Peterson
> >states:
> > >"If you are open to new information, new ideas, you better be able to
> > >intelligently and carefully edit and choose. If you have 50 ideas, only
> >two
> > >or three are likely to be good. You have to be able to discriminate or
> > >you'll get swamped."
> > >
> > > "Scientists have wondered for a long time why madness and creativity
> > >seem linked," says Carson. "It appears likely that low levels of latent
> > >inhibition and exceptional flexibility in thought might predispose to
> > >mental illness under some conditions and to creative accomplishment
>under
> > >others."
> > >
> > > For example, during the early stages of diseases such as
>schizophrenia,
> > >which are often accompanied by feelings of deep insight, mystical
> >knowledge
> > >and religious experience, chemical changes take place in which latent
> > >inhibition disappears.
> > >
> > > "We are very excited by the results of these studies," says Peterson.
> > >"It appears that we have not only identified one of the biological
>bases
> >of
> > >creativity but have moved towards cracking an age-old mystery: the
> > >relationship between genius, madness and the doors of perception."
> > >
> > > Zoe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > > Dear Zoe, Hans Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by
> > >variability
> > >in cortical arousal; "introverts are characterized by higher levels of
> > >activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused
> > >than
> > >extraverts". While it seems counterintuitive to suppose that introverts
> >are
> > >more aroused than extraverts, the putative effect this has on behaviour
> >is
> > >such that the introvert seeks lower levels of stimulation. Conversely,
> >the
> > >extravert seeks to heighten their arousal to a more optimal level ~ ~
>as
> > >predicted by the Yerkes-Dodson Law) ~ ~ by increased activity, social
> > >engagement and other stimulation-seeking behaviours.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Love & Drugsl, Kirsten
> > >--------------------------
> > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >Hi Kristen -
> > > >
> > > > Funny. I currently read some of that stuff for class. What do you
>make
> > > >of that? Do you see co-relations? Anyone?
> > > >
> > > > Warwick's claims that robots that can program themselves to avoid
>each
> > > >other while operating in a group raises the issue of
>self-organization,
> > >and
> > > >as such might be the major impetus in following developments in this
> > >area.
> > > >In particular, the works of Fransisco Varela and Humberto Maturana,
> >once
> > >in
> > > >the province of pure speculation now have become immediately relevant
> > >with
> > > >respect to synthetic intelligence. Cyborg-type systems not only are
> > > >homeostatic (meaning that they are abe to preserve stable internal
> > > >conditions in various environments) but adaptive, if they are to
> >survive.
> > > >Testing the claims of Varela and Maturana via synthetic devices is
>the
> > > >larger and more serious concern in the discussion about Warwick and
> >those
> > > >involved in similar research. "Pulling the plug" on independent
>devices
> > > >cannot be as simple as it appears, for if the device displays
> >sufficient
> > > >intelligence and assumes a diagnostic and prognostic stature, we may
> > > >ultimately one day be forced to decide
> > > > between what it could be telling us as counterintuitive (but
>correct)
> > >and
> > > >our impulse to disconnect because of our limited and "intuitive"
> > > >perceptions. Warwick's robots seemed to have exhibited behavior not
> > > >anticipated by the research, one such robot "committing suicide"
> >because
> > >it
> > > >could not cope with its environment. In a more complex setting, it
>may
> >be
> > > >asked whether a "natural selection" may be possible, neural networks
> > >being
> > > >the major operative.
> > > >
> > > > Thinking about the implications of Warwick's research is not
>confined
> >to
> > > >device implantation or automatons. Researching websites on the U.S.
> > > >Department of Defense's (DoD) development of a simulated
>international
> > > >battlespace. It is no secret that the DoD foresees the day when not
> >only
> > > >all military systems are interoperable, but can be coordinated
>globally
> > >in
> > > >a real-time war. Ultimately, simulations not only are to be used for
> > > >assessing alternative outcomes in wargaming settings but also are to
>be
> > > >used as diagnostic "tools" interactive with a real time battlefield
> > > >situation. If this happens, we must consider self-organization in
>these
> > > >synthetic systems operating in critical environments. That is, if
> >allowed
> > > >to operate with minimal or no human intervention, what of the
>character
> > >of
> > > >the system, itself and its evolution? Hence, Warwick should be a
> >starting
> > > >point for a more serious discussion than the popular media seems to
>be
> > > >capable of maintaining. In the worst case scenario,
> > > > Warwick is deemed a proponent of science fiction, but it may be said
> > >that
> > > >it is great science fiction, as it is based upon the plausible,
>rather
> > >than
> > > >the impossible. In the best case scenario, Warwick, indeed has given
>us
> > > >ample notice to humanity to concern itself with the choice of
>thinking
> > > >about ourselves and our place in the universe or abnegate in favor of
> > > >another consciousness. A return to Aristotle and Plato is in order.
> > > >
> > > > -- Zoe
> > > >
> > > >kirsten schneide wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Dear habituated Susbcribers
> > > >
> > > >The study of group polarization began with an unpublished 1961
>Master’s
> > > >thesis by MIT student James Stoner, who observed the so-called "risky
> > > >shift", meaning that a group’s decisions are riskier than the average
> >of
> > > >the individual decisions of members before the group met. The
>discovery
> > >of
> > > >the risky shift was considered surprising and counterintuitive,
> > >especially
> > > >since earlier work in the 1920s and 1930s by Allport and other
> > >researchers
> > > >suggested that individuals made more extreme decisions than did
>groups,
> > > >leading to the expectation that groups would make decisions that
>would
> > > >conform to the average risk level of its members. The seemingly
> > > >counterintuitive findings of Stoner led to a flurry of research
>around
> > >the
> > > >risky shift, which was originally thought to be a special case
> >exception
> > >to
> > > >the standard decision-making practice. By the late 1960s, however, it
> >had
> > > >become clear that the risky shift was just one type of many attitudes
> > >that
> > > >became more extreme in groups, leading Moscovici and Zavalloni to
>term
> > >the
> > > >overall phenomenon "group polarization".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Love & Shiftstick, Kirsten
> > > >--------------------------
> > > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > > >
> > > > >From: "kirsten schneide"
> > > > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Welt*Bild
> > > > >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:15:38 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Oh William, I like your
> > > > >
> > > > >Attitude/s
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Love & Dress, Kirsten
> > > > >
> > > > >PS:
> > > > >
> > > > >There is a pervasive sense of rootlessness and disorientation that
> > >causes
> > > > >many people to avoid contemplating their place in the universe and
>to
> > > >focus
> > > > >instead on the trivial concerns of consumerism.
> > > > >
> > > > >The lack of social consensus on cosmology in the modern world has
> > >caused
> > > > >many people to close off their thinking to large issues and long
>time
> > > > >scales, so that small matters dominate their consciousness.
> > > > >
> > > > >In most traditional cultures, people's sense of identity and codes
>of
> > > > >behavior are grounded in a cosmology that provides a picture of who
> > >they
> > > > >are, where they come from, and what their personal relationship to
> >the
> > > > >larger world should be. For more than 300 years, however,
>scientific
> > > > >advances have tended to undermine traditional cosmologies while
> > >offering
> > > >an
> > > > >image of the cosmos bereft of spiritual or mythic dimensions.
> > > > >
> > > > >Are you looking for an image of the cosmos consistent with what
> > > >scientists
> > > > >understand about the universe today. That symbol, known to the
> >ancient
> > > > >Greeks as a "uroboros," is the snake swallowing its tail. This:
> >symbol
> > >:
> > > > >represents the universe as a continuity of vastly different size
> > >scales,
> > > > >with the swallowing of the tail representing the hoped-for
> >unification
> > >of
> > > > >theories governing the largest and smallest scales.
> > > > >
> > > > >The size scales in the known universe encompass about 60 orders of
> > > > >magnitude, from the vastness of the cosmic horizon to the subatomic
> > > >Planck
> > > > >scale, the smallest size allowed by relativity and quantum physics.
> >Yet
> > > > >people asked to visualize "the universe" tend to think of endless
> >space
> > > >and
> > > > >uncountable stars and galaxies, while the human scale shrinks into
> > > > >insignificance.
> > > > >
> > > > >Gute Nacht!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> >I would love to know what anyone here thinks
> > > > >> >about the Deikmans' piece.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Not much; as much nonsense as ever
> > > > >>
> > > > >>William
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>info:
> > > > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > > >>
> > > > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > > >>
> > > > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > > > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >_________________________________________________________________
> > > > >Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows
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> >
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> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >info:
> > > > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > > >
> > > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > > >
> > > > >dialogue facilitator:
> > > > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > > >
> > > > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > > >admin@david-bohm.net
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> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >info:
> > > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >dialogue facilitator:
> > > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
> > >
> > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >info:
> > > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >dialogue facilitator:
> > > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > > >
> > > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > >admin@david-bohm.net
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> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >info:
> > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >dialogue facilitator:
> > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
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> >
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> >admin@david-bohm.net
> >
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>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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>
>_______________________________________________
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From benschcoe at hotmail.com Sat Sep 23 21:22:05 2006
From: benschcoe at hotmail.com (Regina Bensch-Coe)
Date: Sun Sep 24 22:16:07 2006
Subject: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <0633EC99-121F-4099-8CD6-DEACCB26A3FC@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY123-F1222B495A08E7AE89319E9B7260@phx.gbl>
Don, have you seen the attached article about the uncertainty principle?
Does it relate to what you are talking about?
Regina
Cornell Chronicle Online, Sept. 19, 2006
New device from CU physicist tests uncertainty principle to unprecedented
level -- and shows that looks can cool
By Lauren Gold
In the submicroscopic world -- the domain of elementary particles and
individual atoms -- things behave in the strange, counter-intuitive fashion
governed by the principles of quantum mechanics. Nothing (or so it seems)
like our macroscopic world -- or even the microscopic world of cells or
bacteria or dust particles -- where Newton's much more reasonable laws keep
things sensibly ordered.
scanning electron microscope image of an aluminum and silicon nitride
resonator coupled to a superconducting single electron transistor
Provided
A scanning electron microscope image of an aluminum and silicon nitride
resonator coupled to a superconducting single electron transistor (SSET).
Researchers watched the resonator move through a phenomenon known as quantum
back-action.
The problem comes in finding the dividing line between the two worlds -- or
even in establishing that such a line exists. To that end, Keith Schwab,
associate professor of physics who moved to Cornell this year from the
National Security Agency, and colleagues have created a device that
approaches this quantum mechanical limit at the largest length-scale to
date.
And surprisingly, the research also has shown how researchers can lower the
temperature of an object -- just by watching it.
The results, which could have applications in quantum computing, cooling
engineering and more, appear in the Sept. 14 issue of the journal Nature.
The device is actually a tiny (8.7 microns, or millionths of a meter, long;
200 nanometers, or billionths of a meter, wide) sliver of aluminum on
silicon nitride, pinned down at both ends and allowed to vibrate in the
middle. Nearby, Schwab positioned a superconducting single electron
transistor (SSET) to detect minuscule changes in the sliver's position.
According to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the precision of
simultaneous measurements of position and velocity of a particle is limited
by a quantifiable amount. Schwab and his colleagues were able to get closer
than ever to that theoretical limit with their measurements, demonstrating
as well a phenomenon called back-action, by which the act of observing
something actually gives it a nudge of momentum.
"We made measurements of position that are so intense -- so strongly coupled
-- that by looking at it we can make it move," said Schwab. "Quantum
mechanics requires that you cannot make a measurement of something and not
perturb it. We're doing measurements that are very close to the uncertainty
principle; and we can couple so strongly that by measuring the position we
can see the thing move."
The device, while undeniably small, is -- at about ten thousand billion
atoms -- vastly bigger than the typical quantum world of elementary
particles.
Still, while that result was unprecedented, it had been predicted by theory.
But the second observation was a surprise: By applying certain voltages to
the transistor, the researchers saw the system's temperature decrease.
"By looking at it you cannot only make it move; you can pull energy out of
it," said Schwab. "And the numbers suggest, if we were to keep going on with
this work, we would be able to cool this thing very cold. Much colder than
we could if we just had this big refrigerator."
The mechanism behind the cooling is analogous to a process called optical or
Doppler cooling, which allows atomic physicists to cool atomic vapor with a
red laser. This is the first time the phenomenon has been observed in a
condensed matter context.
Schwab hasn't decided if he'll pursue the cooling project. More interesting,
he says, is the task of figuring out the bigger problem of quantum
mechanics: whether it holds true in the macroscopic world; and if not, where
the system breaks down.
For that he's focusing on another principle of quantum mechanics -- the
superposition principle -- which holds that a particle can simultaneously be
in two places.
"We're trying to make a mechanical device be in two places at one time.
What's really neat is it looks like we should be able to do it," he said.
"The hope, the dream, the fantasy is that we get that superposition and
start making bigger devices and find the breakdown."
##
Cornell Chronicle:
Lauren Gold
(607) 255-9736
LG34@cornell.edu
>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:48:08 +0100
>
>Interesting insight, This might sound like confusion, but it needn't be.
>It comes back to the kind of awareness that recognises that "in this
>moment i have a choice." But that's it. There can be no conclusion that
>this will always be the case. Suspension in this sense has a lot to do
>with how we value uncertainty.
>
>And since this still appear to be part of the "risky" thread it suddenly
>reminds me that the fear of death has a lot to do with the fear of
>uncertainty.
>don
>
>On 23 Sep 2006, at 16:20, Lynne Tolk wrote:
>
>>I think I experienced something like this a few days ago in a class I am
>>taking using Byron Katie’s work on business issues. The belief came up
>>for examination that choice is possible. I had not realized how much I
>>had invested in that belief. To see that AS a belief (neither accepting
>>nor rejecting it – the reverse of that is also a belief) was a little
>>disorienting, but also liberating. I’m thinking this is what
>>“suspension” is about. It’s pretty exciting to get beyond theory and and
>>actually do it.
>>
>>Lynne
>>On 9/23/06 8:36 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>><Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Rodger__I think pessimism/ optimism are often motivated by fear and
>>>upheld by arrangements of assumption. Whenever assumptions are tested
>>>they soon crumble. To then continue as a pessimist or optimist becomes
>>>an act of blind faith, desperation, and possibly intuition.
>>>
>>>An alternative is neither optimistic, pessimistic, or a rationalized
>>>middle-ground. The alternative emerges beyond knowledge/ assumption
>>>where one gains an awareness of NOT KNOWING -- a reference point without
>>>assumption.
>>>
>>>That level of awareness of NOT KNOWING --isnt mental theorizing about
>>>unknown things-- the awareness opens the mind to a reality that is much
>>>more than what it seems through our assumptions.
>>>
>>>People imagine they would be lost in a chaos, without assumption as
>>>foundation for reality. But assumption & knowledge are the toys. There
>>>is a whole new order and intelligence to be found through
>>>openness-of-mind.
>>>
>>>Dialogue is one of the tools available for opening our awareness of the
>>>mind. Sometimes, for some people the process is a pandora- box, for
>>>others it is an inspiration. Often the difference is connected to
>>>idealizations of liberty being confused for freedom._R
>>>.
>
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>
From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Sat Sep 23 22:49:45 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Sun Sep 24 23:43:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <525DD3E4-DE9B-47A7-8F9B-388062444702@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20060923204945.84112.qmail@web55011.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Don - Which Globe are you on? Mine is (called) Global-Warming, Peakoil, Genocides, Wars-all-over, Overpopulation, Epidemics, Mass-starvations, Pollution, Collapse-of-natural-Stocks, Social-Injustice, Mass-Extinctions, Torture, Election-Fraud, Rainforest-Destruction, Record-Diabetes, Mass-suicides-of-Indian-farmers, World-Freshwater-loss, Famines, Religious-Extremism, Nuclear-Proliferation, Genetic-Design -- just to name a very few. Whatever you might be inclined to perceive as "improvements" will soon, according to the majority of experts, have no more stage to take place on. The theater is on fire. No? Regards --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: For one thing, there is the growth of human population which is now well in excess of 6 billion people. I suppose you can work out the percentages. My comments implied that at least some parts of the world are more peaceful now than ever before. Also, your figures are somewhat questionable. Who did the counting? And especially, who did the counting of all the people killed in the past? These are the sort of extrapolations that make good headlines but that's all. I don't mean to deny we have had pretty violent times but the process of change has to start somewhere. Of course, these day, killing is far more efficient, so one smallish war can account for many more casualties than some ancient big ones.
As recently as when I was a kid, during WWII, war was still considered something glorious. To be a war hero was something very positive, at least in the Anglo American cultural setting. That is much less the case these days.
I can only say that if things have begun to change in some places it may be possible for them to change in others. For instance,Kirsten's vast masses of modern mechanical men in Russia and the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, no longer reads as true as it might have a couple of decades ago.
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 16:15, Zoe Chu wrote:
Don - How do following facts fit in your picture (imagination?)? Respectively: How do you fit them?
The Past century was the most lethal in human history: Over 200 million people were killed in 250 wars and genocidal onslaughts, more people than were killed in warfare in the past two thousand years.
Which (historical) fact/s do you base your "We-have-a-choice" on?
Regards --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 22 Sep 2006, at 14:37, kirsten schneide wrote:
> Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and
> if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing,
> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch
> the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia,
> the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and
> ignorant populations of almost every continent?
I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and
plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some
reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of
cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's experience.
I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature are not fixed nor
are they final. And if there is a limit, then it is yet to be
discovered.
Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms
or power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for
something beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear
of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly
with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had
no idea how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of
domesticating animals and were prey to the bigger and faster
predators. There was also a time when a consensus of the experts
agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel faster than a mile a
minute and that space travel was a physical impossibility. They also
agreed that, before Einstein came along that physics was finished.
pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised to become a
physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there was also
a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could
entertain themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that
to presuppose the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given
insures that such limitation will prove to be what you think it is,
at least for you
So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear
of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am
wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know,
who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that their
meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you
ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
don
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